Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8937 total)
31 online now:
GDR, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle (4 members, 27 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Post Volume: Total: 861,822 Year: 16,858/19,786 Month: 983/2,598 Week: 229/251 Day: 0/58 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   strange experience at confession
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 31 of 49 (861150)
08-18-2019 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Thugpreacha
08-17-2019 2:54 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Phat writes:

And someday when people have failed without God, the secular humanists will blame the behavior of the humans in bringing about the tough times rather than the idea that it is a spiritual war and must happen.

Spiritual war my arse. Must happen, bollox. You guys actually want it to happen.

Yeah I have nutty beliefs. If God didn't exist and if there were no deceiving spirits, your position would be most rational.

You have no idea how nutty this sounds. If you did, you'd be embarrassed to say it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-17-2019 2:54 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 32 of 49 (861186)
08-18-2019 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Thugpreacha
08-18-2019 2:31 AM


Re: My 2 cents
but all you can argue is that there is a lack of evidence,

When does a null result become evidence? When do a thousand null results become a thousand data points of evidence?

not considering that not everything can be evidenced objectively by everyone.

The only consideration is the requirement for objective evidence from those making the claim of god. So far there has been none.

And as above, I contend that the lack of any such evidence spanning literally thousands of years, culture by culture, is itself a most telling body of evidence.

If God didn't exist and if there were no deceiving spirits, your position would be most rational.

Until the requirement for objective evidence of any gods and their deceiving spirit alter egos is shown there can only be the one rational position.

Having said all that let me add...

I am happy for 'a servant of Christ' having found what appears to be some comfort in his deep religious experience.

People find all kinds of solace in all kinds of unevidenced irrational unrealistic ways. Thus is the human condition.

But when, outside there own heads, they use that unevidenced irrational unrealistic way to insistently deny the reality we know with scientific certainty exists in this universe ... then they have entered deeply into Tangle's "nutter" territory.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-18-2019 2:31 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 10:35 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 11:10 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 49 (861187)
08-18-2019 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
08-18-2019 10:31 AM


Re: My 2 cents
The only consideration is the requirement for objective evidence from those making the claim of god. So far there has been none.

Oh nonsense. The Bible is chock full of such objective evidence. All sorts of miracles witnessed by lots of people from beginning to end. That is objective evidence and that's what the evidence was provided for: to be evidence of the reality of God. It's really bizarre that it's dismissed because it got written down.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 10:31 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 1:19 PM Faith has responded
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2019 11:45 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 49 (861193)
08-18-2019 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
08-18-2019 10:31 AM


Re: My 2 cents
Of course that just makes people wonder why there aren't miracles going on now. Well, sometimes there are but they get dismissed too.

After spending some time hearing the Buddhist point of view recently I noticed interesting comparisons with Biblical teachings, particularly the Buddhist view of Karma with the Biblical view of the Moral Law. The Bible tells us to pay attention to the events of life because they have meanings. You may notice that your own attitudes and behaviors are followed by interestingly similar events in your personal experiences. The teachings on karma are very explicit about such correspondences. But unless you are tuned into those things it all just seems chaotic and unrelated. Even when you notice some correspondences you just dismiss them as "coincidence" without meaning. So these things aren't miracles but they are clues to an overarching spiritual reality if you are paying attention.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 10:31 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 35 of 49 (861211)
08-18-2019 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
08-18-2019 10:35 AM


Re: My 2 cents
The Bible is chock full of such objective evidence.

BS. No such stuff.

All sorts of miracles ...

Hearsay, myth and embellished fairy tales. There is *no* objective evidence in your bible or anywhere else.

If there was you would show us all. You can't.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 10:35 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 2:42 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 49 (861219)
08-18-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
08-18-2019 1:19 PM


Re: My 2 cents
I think you are having a problem with the word "objective." Just because we only know of the objective evidence through written accounts of witness testimony doesn't make the evidence itself less objective. Either the Red Sea parted leaving a path of dry land or it didn't. Witnesses say it did, Moses or his scribe wrote what the witnesses said. If it did that's objective evidence of some kind of supernatural intervention, which the witnesses call God. Same with all the other miracles. I can't show them to you because they were one-time events that came and went and left only witness testimony to their having been. You think you can dismiss it all because it was written down, but that's nonsensical. CALLING it "myth" is just a case of poisoning the well. You have no justification for calling it that. I know you think you do but you have merely convinced yourself based on not liking the idea and for no other reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 1:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 4:18 PM Faith has responded
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 08-19-2019 1:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 37 of 49 (861236)
08-18-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
08-18-2019 2:42 PM


Re: My 2 cents
I don’t have a problem with “objective evidence”. You have the problem with “objective evidence”.

You have not yet grasped the concept that objective evidence is independent of the protagonist. Evidence of any events in your bible can not be objectively verified by any other sources *within* that same bible. “Objective” requires sources outside and independent of your bible.

Millions of people wandering as one large group hither and yon across the Sinai for 40 years would leave marks, clues, evidence of their encampments and travels that should have been found by those archeologists looking for such over the last 200 years and still be there today. THAT would be objective evidence. There is none. The Exodus story is suspect.

If the parting of the Red Sea was real the physical evidence of such a massive movement of water, dry land and the swallowing of Pharaoh’s army would be there. It isn’t. Further, given the geopolitical climate of the times this is supposed to have occurred there would be stories written in numerous other cultures about how Pharaoh got his butt kicked at the Red Sea. Chronicles would have shown up in the histories of the Hittites who just loved recording the foibles of their favorite enemy. THAT would be objective evidence. There is none. The entire Exodus story is bunk.

You think you can dismiss it all because it was written down, but that's nonsensical.

Your bible stories are dismissed as myth and fairy tales not because they are written in your bible, written by the far from disinterested priests, well after the (supposed) events by centuries, but because they are *not* written anywhere else by those who would have written of such miracles had they actually occurred. They are dismissed as myth and fairy tales not because they are written in your bible by your far from disinterested priests well after the (supposed) events by centuries but because the long term physical evidence that would necessarily accompany such miracles have never been found.

Objective evidence is far more restrictive than the willie-nillie treatment you are so moved to support your shaky myths.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 2:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 5:39 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 49 (861242)
08-18-2019 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
08-18-2019 4:18 PM


Re: My 2 cents
I kind of think any clues to the encampments in the desert would long since have been erased after almost four thousand years.

"Far from disinterested" doesn't mean they lie and there is such a thing as the Fear of God to keep them honest.

AND for another futile side note, I think it was C.S. Lewis who said anyone who thinks the Bible reads like a book of myths doesn't know anything about myths. As a Professor of such literature he should have known but I realize that isn't going to change your mind.

So I have to content myself with personally knowing it's not mythical and politely nodding at your belief that it is.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 4:18 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 6:22 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 39 of 49 (861243)
08-18-2019 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
08-18-2019 5:39 PM


Re: My 2 cents
I kind of think any clues to the encampments in the desert would long since have been erased after almost four thousand years.

Then you would be wrong. That desert preserves everything.

Har Karkom

"Far from disinterested" doesn't mean they lie ...

Not only willfully lie but embellish the past lies of their ancient predecessors. It's human. We have seen it again and again in "far from disinterested" histories from Herodotus to Caesar, Josephus to Ussher.

And "the Fear of God" only serves to exacerbate their delusions.

I realize that isn't going to change your mind.

From reality to fantasy? No thank you.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 5:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 11:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 49 (861251)
08-18-2019 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
08-18-2019 6:22 PM


Re: My 2 cents
You answer my thought that any evidence of the encampments in the Sinai desert would be long since erased, by saying no, that the desert preserves everything. Then you link to an article about a very questionable identification of Mount Sinai, and make no mention of evidence of encampments either.

Fear of God means fear to violate God's commandment against lying.

(Nodding politely to your claim it's fantasy)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 6:22 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2019 3:38 AM Faith has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5805
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 41 of 49 (861252)
08-18-2019 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
08-18-2019 10:35 AM


Re: My 2 cents
Oh nonsense. The Bible is chock full of such objective evidence. All sorts of miracles witnessed by lots of people from beginning to end. That is objective evidence and that's what the evidence was provided for: to be evidence of the reality of God. It's really bizarre that it's dismissed because it got written down.

Therefore we can trust the objective value of the Veda's and the Qur'an because "it got written down?" If that same logic applies to the bible then give a compelling reason why that doesn't work for Islam. If you can understand why people find it hard to believe Qur'anic scripture then it shouldn't be difficult to surmise why people find biblical scripture equally unbelievable.

A 2,000 - 4,000 year old claim is not objective evidence, its an assertion. It could be true, but there's really no way to verify it. That's the value of prophecies because at least to some extent it would be testable. Of course, prophecies are often vague and unspecified. A real prophecy would offer dates, times and specificity so that indisputable evidence would speak for itself.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 10:35 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 11:48 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 49 (861253)
08-18-2019 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
08-18-2019 11:45 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Those writings don't offer physical evidence of God, but the Bible offers lots and lots of such evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2019 11:45 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2019 11:53 PM Faith has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5805
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 43 of 49 (861254)
08-18-2019 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
08-18-2019 11:48 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Those writings don't offer physical evidence of God, but the Bible offers lots and lots of such evidence.

I don't think anyone is asking or requiring physical evidence of God. I think most people understand conceptually that God would be an incorporeal being that transcends time, space and matter. They just want a compelling reason to even assume it


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 11:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 08-19-2019 12:02 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 49 (861255)
08-19-2019 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
08-18-2019 11:53 PM


not what I said
The context of what I said was the claim that there is no evidence for God, which is a sort of asking for evidence so I gave it. Perhaps you should read back to that point in the thread. You also seem to have gotten the wrong idea about what I said about its being written down: I did not give that as any verification of the truth of the Bible but the opposite: I said that it is disputed merely because it is written down. Which provides the excuse for calling it a myth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-18-2019 11:53 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-19-2019 12:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5805
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 45 of 49 (861257)
08-19-2019 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
08-19-2019 12:02 AM


Re: not what I said
The context of what I said was the claim that there is no evidence for God, which is a sort of asking for evidence so I gave it. Perhaps you should read back to that point in the thread. You also seem to have gotten the wrong idea about what I said about its being written down: I did not give that as any verification of the truth of the Bible but the opposite: I said that it is disputed merely because it is written down. Which provides the excuse for calling it a myth.

If that is truly the context then I sincerely apologize. It looked like you were saying that because of the bible that God is objectively believable.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 08-19-2019 12:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019