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Author Topic:   Biased accounts of intelligent design
Taq
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Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 136 of 146 (881262)
08-20-2020 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Jedothek
08-19-2020 8:28 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Jedothek writes:

I believe that the work of (e.g.) Stephen C. Meyer is science, as an unbiased reader will find by examining his arguments.

Meyer's work boils down to a God of the Gaps argument, one of the hallmarks of pseudoscience. If you think this is wrong, then point to any ID argument that doesn't boil down to "Evolution is false, therefore it was intelligently designed". It gets even worse when you look at Meyer's specific claims which many have turned out to be false (e.g. lack of pre-cambrian life and transitional forms).

ID is pseudoscience because it can't stand on its own. ID can't produce positive evidence for its own claims. I have never seen a scientist try to support the theory of evolution by saying "There is no evidence for intelligent design, therefore it had to evolve". Not once.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Jedothek, posted 08-19-2020 8:28 AM Jedothek has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Jedothek, posted 08-21-2020 10:47 AM Taq has responded

  
Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 137 of 146 (881274)
08-21-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Taq
08-20-2020 6:22 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Sketches (if not fully elaborated expositions) of ID arguments that don't boil down to "Evolution is false, therefore it was intelligently designed" can be found at

https://www.discovery.org/...ligent-Design-Stephen-Meyer.pdf

I excerpt a brief passage to indicate the character of the arguments.

“I argued – based upon our uniform experience – that sequences that are both complex and functionally-specified (rich in information
content or specified information) invariably arise only from the activity of intelligent agents.
Thus, I argued that the presence of specified information provides a hallmark or signature of a
designing intelligence.”


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Taq, posted 08-20-2020 6:22 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Taq, posted 08-24-2020 5:08 PM Jedothek has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 138 of 146 (881463)
08-24-2020 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jedothek
08-21-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Jedothek writes:

“I argued – based upon our uniform experience – that sequences that are both complex and functionally-specified (rich in information
content or specified information) invariably arise only from the activity of intelligent agents.
Thus, I argued that the presence of specified information provides a hallmark or signature of a
designing intelligence.”

Where is the evidence that supports this argument? How does one measure complex and functionally-specified sequences? How does one falsify his hypothesis?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jedothek, posted 08-21-2020 10:47 AM Jedothek has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Jedothek, posted 08-24-2020 6:17 PM Taq has responded

  
Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 139 of 146 (881481)
08-24-2020 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Taq
08-24-2020 5:08 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
For specific answers to your first and second questions, you would do better to consult Meyers’ writings than to listen to my attempts at paraphrase; but I shall offer an argument in the form of a hypothetical illustration that, I think, demonstrates something despite its hypothetical character. Consider:

Scenario I: Suppose that in 1835 ( I am altering history for the purposes of clear illustration ) archaeologists had dug up from the sands of Mesopotamia the first cuneiform tablets seen since ancient times. “Extraordinary,” says one scholar, “an unknown script. I shall copy these markings, publish them, and perhaps soon we shall decipher them and increase vastly our knowledge of ancient times.”
“Oh” scoffs a colleague, “what a fanciful notion. These are just natural formations, brought about by the action of wind and water.”
Who would be taken seriously? The second scholar would be laughed at and dismissed. Why? Because cuneiform, even to those who cannot read it, is clearly intelligently designed. The hypothesis of artifice would be the only one taken seriously.

Scenario II: biologists discover a bewildering array of complex structures and processes in the cell: Flagella, mitochondria, the genetic code itself. One biologist says, “This stuff looks intelligently designed to me.”
His colleagues respond with outrage. “That is unscientific” they yell, “intelligent design can never be a legitimate explanation in science. It is of the nature of science that we employ as hypotheses only natural processes.”

In one case intelligent design is considered to be the only sensible hypothesis; in the other case ID is considered out of the question. What is the difference between the two scenarios? There is only one answer: mainstream scientists believe in human beings ( the putative creators of cuneiform), and they do not believe in God. They know that intelligent design occurs sometimes, but they reject such an explanation whenever it would imply God’s existence. We are faced here with nothing more or less than a dogmatic prejudice against theism – masquerading, of course, as “objectivity.”

The moral of the story is that we often recognize design without trouble, but when the design hypothesis offends a cherished dogma – in this case, atheism – suddenly no amount of evidence for design is deemed sufficient.

With regard to your third question, Taq, it is true that intelligent design is hard to falsify. In the case of the cuneiform tablets, to show that they are not intelligently designed, one would have to provide a detailed scenario of how they might have been formed by geological processes, and preferably show through experiment that wind and water could form such things. You are welcome to raise the question of burden of proof if you wish, but I warn you that the issue is more complicated than any treatment I have encountered.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Taq, posted 08-24-2020 5:08 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 2:29 PM Jedothek has not yet responded
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 08-25-2020 6:33 PM Jedothek has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4007
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 140 of 146 (881559)
08-25-2020 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jedothek
08-24-2020 6:17 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Jedothek writes:

What is the difference between the two scenarios?

Cuneiform tablets look designed - they look like writing carved into stone.

Flagella, mitochondria or the genetic code itself (DNA) look natural.
They are all just natural things in their natural state. Nothing carved into them, nothing added to them, nothing removed. Just natural stuff doing natural things.

If you want to take something that looks natural and say it "looks designed!" to you - you're going to have to identify what you think "design" looks like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jedothek, posted 08-24-2020 6:17 PM Jedothek has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 141 of 146 (881582)
08-25-2020 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jedothek
08-24-2020 6:17 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Jedothek writes:

Scenario I: Suppose that in 1835 ( I am altering history for the purposes of clear illustration ) archaeologists had dug up from the sands of Mesopotamia the first cuneiform tablets seen since ancient times. “Extraordinary,” says one scholar, “an unknown script. I shall copy these markings, publish them, and perhaps soon we shall decipher them and increase vastly our knowledge of ancient times.”
“Oh” scoffs a colleague, “what a fanciful notion. These are just natural formations, brought about by the action of wind and water.”
Who would be taken seriously? The second scholar would be laughed at and dismissed. Why? Because cuneiform, even to those who cannot read it, is clearly intelligently designed. The hypothesis of artifice would be the only one taken seriously.

Scenario II: biologists discover a bewildering array of complex structures and processes in the cell: Flagella, mitochondria, the genetic code itself. One biologist says, “This stuff looks intelligently designed to me.”
His colleagues respond with outrage. “That is unscientific” they yell, “intelligent design can never be a legitimate explanation in science. It is of the nature of science that we employ as hypotheses only natural processes.”

The difference is that we can observe new cells arising through natural processes. It's called biological reproduction.

The moral of the story is that we often recognize design without trouble, but when the design hypothesis offends a cherished dogma – in this case, atheism – suddenly no amount of evidence for design is deemed sufficient.

Evolution is not atheism. There are tons of Christians who accept evolution as the process by which live diversified.

With regard to your third question, Taq, it is true that intelligent design is hard to falsify. In the case of the cuneiform tablets, to show that they are not intelligently designed, one would have to provide a detailed scenario of how they might have been formed by geological processes, and preferably show through experiment that wind and water could form such things. You are welcome to raise the question of burden of proof if you wish, but I warn you that the issue is more complicated than any treatment I have encountered.

I can take a single bacterium and put it in broth. The next day I have billions of new bacteria, all through natural processes. ID falsified.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jedothek, posted 08-24-2020 6:17 PM Jedothek has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Jedothek, posted 08-26-2020 8:38 PM Taq has responded

  
Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 142 of 146 (881652)
08-26-2020 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Taq
08-25-2020 6:33 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
"The difference is that we can observe new cells arising through natural processes. It's called biological reproduction."

But here the new cell arises from one of equal complexity. The old cell, especially its nucleic acid, already has the structure that, to some, looks designed. The question is: how did that complex structure arise originally?

An analogue to your statement would be: “See, I have just photocopied the poem that we call ‘Ode to a Nightingale’; the copy was produced by an unintelligent machine working according to natural principles . Therefore, there is no need to suppose that there was some intelligent agent called a ‘poet’ who composed the poem originally.”

“Evolution is not atheism. There are tons of Christians who accept evolution as the process by which live diversified.”

This is subtly wide of the mark. Evolution might have happened according to various processes (“mechanisms”). But when atheists see indications of intelligent design, they react irrationally because they fear that the evidence will lead them to believe in a superhuman designer, often supposed to be God.

“I can take a single bacterium and put it in broth. The next day I have billions of new bacteria, all through natural processes. ID falsified.”

See my response to your first point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 08-25-2020 6:33 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Taq, posted 08-31-2020 12:26 PM Jedothek has responded
 Message 145 by Capt Stormfield, posted 09-07-2020 6:00 PM Jedothek has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 143 of 146 (881807)
08-31-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jedothek
08-26-2020 8:38 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Jedothek writes:

But here the new cell arises from one of equal complexity.

You need evidence for this assertion.

But when atheists see indications of intelligent design, they react irrationally because they fear that the evidence will lead them to believe in a superhuman designer, often supposed to be God.

Fake mindreading is not a valid argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jedothek, posted 08-26-2020 8:38 PM Jedothek has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jedothek, posted 09-05-2020 11:57 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 18
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 144 of 146 (881923)
09-05-2020 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Taq
08-31-2020 12:26 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Jedothek: But here the new cell arises from one of equal complexity.

Taq: You need evidence for this assertion.

Jedothek: when organisms reproduce, the offspring, generally, is not any more complex that the parents. Are you denying this? If you are, then, on the the contrary it is you who need to give an example of increasing complexity in reproduction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Taq, posted 08-31-2020 12:26 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 417
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 145 of 146 (881991)
09-07-2020 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jedothek
08-26-2020 8:38 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
But when atheists see indications of intelligent design, they react irrationally because they fear that the evidence will lead them to believe in a superhuman designer, often supposed to be God.

A couple points.

- There is no evidence of intelligent design. The arguments for the proposition are theological and/or logically fallacious in nature.

- Opponents of intelligent design react negatively to it because its promoters were stupid enough to publish an outline of their goals and methods. Have you read the wedge document? Do you understand the problems associated with outlining a plan for the integration of your hypothesis into society broadly, and education specifically, which plan places "find evidence for hypothesis" after its implementation in said plan?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jedothek, posted 08-26-2020 8:38 PM Jedothek has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by FLRW, posted 09-08-2020 5:36 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
FLRW
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 10-08-2007
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 146 of 146 (882015)
09-08-2020 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Capt Stormfield
09-07-2020 6:00 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Isn't pediatric cancer evidence of poor design? Isn't 8.7 million species on Earth evidence of poor design?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Capt Stormfield, posted 09-07-2020 6:00 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
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