|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Junior Member (Idle past 89 days) Posts: 18 From: Pittsburgh Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Biased accounts of intelligent design | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8469 Joined: Member Rating: 6.0
|
Meyer's work boils down to a God of the Gaps argument, one of the hallmarks of pseudoscience. If you think this is wrong, then point to any ID argument that doesn't boil down to "Evolution is false, therefore it was intelligently designed". It gets even worse when you look at Meyer's specific claims which many have turned out to be false (e.g. lack of pre-cambrian life and transitional forms). ID is pseudoscience because it can't stand on its own. ID can't produce positive evidence for its own claims. I have never seen a scientist try to support the theory of evolution by saying "There is no evidence for intelligent design, therefore it had to evolve". Not once. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jedothek Junior Member (Idle past 89 days) Posts: 18 From: Pittsburgh Joined: |
Sketches (if not fully elaborated expositions) of ID arguments that don't boil down to "Evolution is false, therefore it was intelligently designed" can be found at
https://www.discovery.org/...ligent-Design-Stephen-Meyer.pdf I excerpt a brief passage to indicate the character of the arguments. “I argued – based upon our uniform experience – that sequences that are both complex and functionally-specified (rich in information
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8469 Joined: Member Rating: 6.0 |
Where is the evidence that supports this argument? How does one measure complex and functionally-specified sequences? How does one falsify his hypothesis?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jedothek Junior Member (Idle past 89 days) Posts: 18 From: Pittsburgh Joined: |
For specific answers to your first and second questions, you would do better to consult Meyers’ writings than to listen to my attempts at paraphrase; but I shall offer an argument in the form of a hypothetical illustration that, I think, demonstrates something despite its hypothetical character. Consider:
Scenario I: Suppose that in 1835 ( I am altering history for the purposes of clear illustration ) archaeologists had dug up from the sands of Mesopotamia the first cuneiform tablets seen since ancient times. “Extraordinary,” says one scholar, “an unknown script. I shall copy these markings, publish them, and perhaps soon we shall decipher them and increase vastly our knowledge of ancient times.” Scenario II: biologists discover a bewildering array of complex structures and processes in the cell: Flagella, mitochondria, the genetic code itself. One biologist says, “This stuff looks intelligently designed to me.” In one case intelligent design is considered to be the only sensible hypothesis; in the other case ID is considered out of the question. What is the difference between the two scenarios? There is only one answer: mainstream scientists believe in human beings ( the putative creators of cuneiform), and they do not believe in God. They know that intelligent design occurs sometimes, but they reject such an explanation whenever it would imply God’s existence. We are faced here with nothing more or less than a dogmatic prejudice against theism – masquerading, of course, as “objectivity.” The moral of the story is that we often recognize design without trouble, but when the design hypothesis offends a cherished dogma – in this case, atheism – suddenly no amount of evidence for design is deemed sufficient. With regard to your third question, Taq, it is true that intelligent design is hard to falsify. In the case of the cuneiform tablets, to show that they are not intelligently designed, one would have to provide a detailed scenario of how they might have been formed by geological processes, and preferably show through experiment that wind and water could form such things. You are welcome to raise the question of burden of proof if you wish, but I warn you that the issue is more complicated than any treatment I have encountered.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4034 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Cuneiform tablets look designed - they look like writing carved into stone. Flagella, mitochondria or the genetic code itself (DNA) look natural. If you want to take something that looks natural and say it "looks designed!" to you - you're going to have to identify what you think "design" looks like.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8469 Joined: Member Rating: 6.0
|
The difference is that we can observe new cells arising through natural processes. It's called biological reproduction.
Evolution is not atheism. There are tons of Christians who accept evolution as the process by which live diversified.
I can take a single bacterium and put it in broth. The next day I have billions of new bacteria, all through natural processes. ID falsified.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jedothek Junior Member (Idle past 89 days) Posts: 18 From: Pittsburgh Joined: |
"The difference is that we can observe new cells arising through natural processes. It's called biological reproduction."
But here the new cell arises from one of equal complexity. The old cell, especially its nucleic acid, already has the structure that, to some, looks designed. The question is: how did that complex structure arise originally? An analogue to your statement would be: “See, I have just photocopied the poem that we call ‘Ode to a Nightingale’; the copy was produced by an unintelligent machine working according to natural principles . Therefore, there is no need to suppose that there was some intelligent agent called a ‘poet’ who composed the poem originally.” “Evolution is not atheism. There are tons of Christians who accept evolution as the process by which live diversified.” This is subtly wide of the mark. Evolution might have happened according to various processes (“mechanisms”). But when atheists see indications of intelligent design, they react irrationally because they fear that the evidence will lead them to believe in a superhuman designer, often supposed to be God. “I can take a single bacterium and put it in broth. The next day I have billions of new bacteria, all through natural processes. ID falsified.” See my response to your first point.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 8469 Joined: Member Rating: 6.0
|
You need evidence for this assertion.
Fake mindreading is not a valid argument.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jedothek Junior Member (Idle past 89 days) Posts: 18 From: Pittsburgh Joined: |
Jedothek: But here the new cell arises from one of equal complexity.
Taq: You need evidence for this assertion. Jedothek: when organisms reproduce, the offspring, generally, is not any more complex that the parents. Are you denying this? If you are, then, on the the contrary it is you who need to give an example of increasing complexity in reproduction.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 419 From: Vancouver Island Joined: |
A couple points. - There is no evidence of intelligent design. The arguments for the proposition are theological and/or logically fallacious in nature. - Opponents of intelligent design react negatively to it because its promoters were stupid enough to publish an outline of their goals and methods. Have you read the wedge document? Do you understand the problems associated with outlining a plan for the integration of your hypothesis into society broadly, and education specifically, which plan places "find evidence for hypothesis" after its implementation in said plan?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
FLRW Member (Idle past 43 days) Posts: 54 Joined: |
Isn't pediatric cancer evidence of poor design? Isn't 8.7 million species on Earth evidence of poor design?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021