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Author Topic:   Biased accounts of intelligent design
RAZD
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Posts: 20115
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 106 of 133 (861552)
08-23-2019 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
08-22-2019 5:09 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
I'm glad you used the word 'belief' there. I find deists really weird, they go rational, rational, rational, rational, whoops irrational.

Thanks. I like to think that Deism is the only rational belief when all is said and done.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 107 of 133 (861554)
08-23-2019 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
08-23-2019 9:59 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
You have no clue what steps we envisage and your "assessment" of their possibilities is meaningless.

Perhaps some kind of calculations could demonstrate something, but nobody knows the numbers needed to do the calculations. So IDists make unjustified and/or obviously false assumptions to feed into the calculations. It's BS.

Nothing in the various proposed possible evolutionary sequences is arbitrary. There are logical and scientific reasons for each proposed step.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 9:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 10:38 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 133 (861556)
08-23-2019 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by JonF
08-23-2019 10:15 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
I'm glad you say the calculations are BS because nobody knows the numbers needed." That's how it hit me too but since I'm no mathematician there's no point in my saying it.

But I think I DO "have a clue what steps [you] envisage." They have to involve mutations, right? In which case any claims of getting functional advantageous steps don't fit with any biological/genetic principles I've ever heard of. But of course perhaps you can enlighten me.

I do suspect that if you spelled out those "logical and scientific reasons for each proposed step" in one of those sequences that are envisaged to show how developmental stages can be constructed from wildly unrelated biological systems, they WOULD be arbitrary. What else could they be? You are depending on your imagination to define how some very complicated structures must fit together. You're bound to leave out a lot of elements if nothing else, but just the procedure itself is … whimsical.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by JonF, posted 08-23-2019 10:15 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 109 of 133 (861558)
08-23-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
08-23-2019 10:38 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Faith writes:

They have to involve mutations, right? In which case any claims of getting functional advantageous steps don't fit with any biological/genetic principles I've ever heard of. But of course perhaps you can enlighten me.

What happens if a mutation actually makes a critter better able to live in its environment?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 10:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 10:42 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 133 (861560)
08-23-2019 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by jar
08-23-2019 10:40 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
I'd say that's a one in a million or zillion pleasant outcome, and of course I'd doubt it was a mutation, but more likely a beneficial combination of existing genetic stuff that happened to come along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 08-23-2019 10:40 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-23-2019 10:45 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 111 of 133 (861561)
08-23-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Faith
08-23-2019 10:42 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Faith writes:

I'd say that's a one in a million or zillion pleasant outcome, and of course I'd doubt it was a mutation, but more likely a beneficial combination of existing genetic stuff that happened to come along.

What you think is irrelevant. Whether or not it is a mutation can be determined by examining the DNA. Whether or not it helps can be checked by seeing if the critter has an advantage.

So the question remains; "What happens if a mutation actually makes a critter better able to live in its environment?"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 10:42 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 10:49 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 133 (861562)
08-23-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
08-23-2019 10:45 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Not sure examining the DNA is always reliable for determining whether a given allele or combination is a mutation or not.

Also I did answer the question: "I'd say that's a one in a million or zillion pleasant outcome...."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-23-2019 10:45 AM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 113 of 133 (861563)
08-23-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
08-23-2019 10:49 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Faith writes:

Not sure examining the DNA is always reliable for determining whether a given allele or combination is a mutation or not.

What you are not sure of is irrelevant, particularly since you have never shown any sign that you even know what a mutation is.

Faith writes:

Also I did answer the question: "I'd say that's a one in a million or zillion pleasant outcome...."

Okay, so you agree that would make the critter better able to exist in its environment.

Now what happens in that critter breeds and the mutation is passed to the next generation?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 114 of 133 (861565)
08-23-2019 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
08-23-2019 10:38 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Yes, they involve mutations. You've made it abundantly clear over the years that you are incapable of understanding what kinds of effects mutations can have. Nobody can enlighten you.

You can suspect whatever you want. That doesn't change the fact that the proposed stages are not arbitrary. I don't know if anyone has published a graph of a path for the flagellum mutation by mutation, but there's one for chloroquine resistance in mosquitoes (which Behe claims is not possible for evolution). Here's two proposed pathways (click to make the image much bigger}:

Full paper at Diverse mutational pathways converge on saturable chloroquine transport via the malaria parasite’s chloroquine resistance transporter

Let us know when you've identified arbitrary elements. Until then, don't make any claims about arbitraryness.


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 Message 108 by Faith, posted 08-23-2019 10:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 13
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 115 of 133 (861569)
08-23-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by RAZD
08-22-2019 1:32 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
RAZD writes:

Curiously, I was pointing out how your post to JonF also applied to you.

My point was that my post to JonF does not apply to me , since he has expressed trust in the scientific community ( see e.g., his post of 8-18-2019, 1:05 PM) whereas I have expressed no trust in the ID people, merely disdain for bad characterizations and evaluations of ID.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2019 1:32 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 13
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 116 of 133 (861571)
08-23-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by PaulK
08-22-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
PaulK writes:

It seems to me that you do place a lot of trust in ID and your criticisms follow from that, rather than any illogic in the objections.


Would you care to explain that seeming? I think you will be unable to support that seeming with a single quote from what I have posted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 08-22-2019 3:09 PM PaulK has responded

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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 117 of 133 (861572)
08-23-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Jedothek
08-23-2019 11:37 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
Are you ever going to specify what those alleged bad characterizations and evaluations are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Jedothek, posted 08-23-2019 11:37 AM Jedothek has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Jedothek, posted 08-23-2019 12:12 PM JonF has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20115
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 118 of 133 (861577)
08-23-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Jedothek
08-23-2019 11:37 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
RAZD writes:

Curiously, I was pointing out how your post to JonF also applied to you.

My point was that my post to JonF does not apply to me , since he has expressed trust in the scientific community ( see e.g., his post of 8-18-2019, 1:05 PM) whereas I have expressed no trust in the ID people, merely disdain for bad characterizations and evaluations of ID.

Fine, so you are either ambivalent or don't trust ID ... so why the outrage at the Wiki coverage?

Meanwhile you have yet to answer questions:

Message 36: So do you have any information on how Intelligent design is accomplished? By what process is it implemented?

How do you define "information" and how do you measure "complexity" ... for discussing quantities without a measuring system is simply just expressing an opinion, and not science.

Message 87: So do you have any information on how Intelligent design is actually accomplished/activated? By what process is it implemented?

How do you define "information" and how do you measure "complexity" ... for discussing quantities without a measuring system is simply just expressing an opinion, and not science.

Message 91: Now one could envisage mosquitoes as vectors carrying viral agents that insert DNA segments into targets, but the problem here is that, while this is a readily available delivery system, it doesn't appear to be used for this purpose: the viral inserts are random -- essentially environment induced mutations -- and don't lead to speciation or any visible change in survival or reproduction of target species other than death and reduced health/ability. That's a negative result.

Are there other delivery systems possible?

The genetic code example seems to be an argument from incredulity more than anything else at this point (you have certainly not developed it beyond a cursory example at this point).

Got anything else?

Curiously, I am more interested in answers to these questions (this is a debate thread), than I am about your level of trust in ID.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Jedothek, posted 08-23-2019 11:37 AM Jedothek has not yet responded

  
Jedothek
Junior Member
Posts: 13
From: Pittsburgh
Joined: 08-14-2019


Message 119 of 133 (861581)
08-23-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by JonF
08-23-2019 11:50 AM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
That's what I began by doing. See the post that started the thread. My point was not that the evidence for ID was overwhelming but that Wikipedia's beginning its article on ID with the term "pseudoscientific' was biased and juvenile. The discussion of whether ID is science should have appeared ( as it did , in addition , to an inadequate degree ) in a separate section such as "Reaction form the scientific community."

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 120 of 133 (861588)
08-23-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Jedothek
08-23-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Geting back to the question of ID
You can edit Wikipedia.

So you have no problem with the many scientific evaluations that have found ID to be unscientific twaddle?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Jedothek, posted 08-23-2019 12:12 PM Jedothek has not yet responded

  
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