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Author Topic:   Jesus - Wholly Man - Wholly God
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 91 of 105 (862250)
09-03-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
09-02-2019 8:53 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes:

Do you deny the virgin birth, that God begot Him, not Joseph? If you say He is both wholly God and wholly man how COULD you say that and yet it sounds like that is what you are saying. He said "Before Abraham was, I AM," That's a direct claim to have existed before Abraham, and He uses the name of God for Himself. He also says He "came down from heaven." So yes of course prior to being born human He was God, and He stayed God throughout His human life though He did not live by His divine powers, He lived a human life as we all do, and He is still God AND man, glorified man, the firstborn from the dead unto the Kingdom of God and the new creation, which He opened to us by His life and death as a human being.

And again I can't understand how you could ask the question who He prayed to. He prayed AS A MAN, GDR, He did EVERYTHING as a man, and men pray to God. Even if He prayed as the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, it would make good enough sense, but He didn't, He prayed as a man, just as He lived as a man, just as He died as a man. He needed to pray the same way He needed to do everything else human beings do, He came to live the life of a human being. He had put aside His divine powers in order to live as a man.

The before Abraham I Was quote simply goes back to John 1 where the “Word” that existed before time became flesh. Jesus embodied the “Word” of God.

When you say He came down from heaven are you also claiming that He remembered a life in heaven prior to His earthly existence?

OK, you’re saying as a man who knew He was God, He prayed to God as any other man. Why would He pray what He did in Gethsemane?

Faith writes:

You've many times said that the traditionalist/fundamentalist emphasis on our salvation is "selfish" while you think the "message" is far more important: to have a loving heart. You haven't said that yet here but I suppose eventually you will.

The fundamentalist message is essentially that you want to believe the tenants of the Christian faith in order to get yourself on the right side of things when you die. The Scriptural message is that you want to have a heart guided by the Holy Spirit because we have been called as humans to care for our neighbours and all of God’s good creation. When the focus is on personal salvation it is again, all about me which is just the opposite of the Gospel message.
Faith writes:

So it seems you really have no explanation whatever for His incarnation. Why would such a messenger need to be God at all? Someone like Paul could have done the job, a mere human being strongly taught in the scriptures and living a blameless life as a Jewish teacher.

His incarnation was the work of the Holy Spirit and the virgin conception is fine by me but I’m also ok with it happening some other way.

One of the problems with fundamentalism seems to me is that there is a need to be able to have pat answers to all the questions. Christianity is a faith. Yes there are things we have to take as absolutes. Those absolutes are simply that God is good, loving, forgiving, just etc, and that Jesus guided perfectly by the Holy Spirit embodied those attributes. Another absolute is that as followers of Jesus we are called to live out our lives following Jesus’ example of sacrificial love for God’s people and His creation. Further still Christianity teaches that God the Father has made the "Son" Lord of all nations, and that the Kingdom established is for now and forever. Also that there is ultimate meaning and purpose for our lives here on Earth. However again, those absolutes are faith and belief.

There is mystery. We don’t have all the answers. There are unanswerable questions. It seems that as Christians we so often get bogged down in arguing about those unanswerable questions that we take the focus off of what God is calling us, and all humans of any faith, to do and be.

Faith writes:

Is there any need at all for Jesus to have been "Wholly God" in your way of thinking?

Yes, as well as wholly man.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 09-02-2019 8:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 09-03-2019 11:19 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-03-2019 9:27 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 105 (862255)
09-03-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
09-03-2019 10:44 AM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
The before Abraham I Was quote simply goes back to John 1 where the “Word” that existed before time became flesh. Jesus embodied the “Word” of God.

But the Word exist4ed before Abraham, and that's a claim by Jesus to be God. Unless what you are saying is something more convoluted, such as that the Word is not even a person? That is, not the Second Persona of the Trinity?

When you say He came down from heaven are you also claiming that He remembered a life in heaven prior to His earthly existence?

Of course. But I'm not sure how God Himself would "remember" such a "life in heaven." So what I'd say is that He knew He was God who came down from heaven.

OK, you’re saying as a man who knew He was God, He prayed to God as any other man.

He was Wholly Man, remember? He prayed as a man would pray to God.

Why would He pray what He did in Gethsemane?

Why on earth wouldn't He? He was Wholly Man who had a completely human dread of suffering, especially such intense suffering as He knew was coming.

Got to come back for the rest.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 09-03-2019 10:44 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 105 (862310)
09-03-2019 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
09-03-2019 10:44 AM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes:

You've many times said that the traditionalist/fundamentalist emphasis on our salvation is "selfish" while you think the "message" is far more important: to have a loving heart. You haven't said that yet here but I suppose eventually you will.

The fundamentalist message is essentially that you want to believe the tenants of the Christian faith in order to get yourself on the right side of things when you die.

You put this with maximum cynicism about the motives of your fellow Christians.

The Scriptural message is that you want to have a heart guided by the Holy Spirit because we have been called as humans to care for our neighbours and all of God’s good creation. When the focus is on personal salvation it is again, all about me which is just the opposite of the Gospel message.

Two things:

First, yes it is "all about me." All religions except Christianity require earning your way to whatever their version of salvation is, whether "paradise with 72 virgins" or "nirvana" (which is the cessation of the karma which condemns) or whatever. You get there by practicing their rules, moral rules or whatever rules they teach, usually moral, and most members of those religions know they can never succeed at the task and suffer guilt and anxiety as a result.

So some people who come from such religions to Christ are extremely grateful to find out that they can be saved without all that, which is very happy news ("good news" is what the word "gospel" means you know) since they know they could never accomplish it for themselves. What Jesus did is answer the longings of the human heart that have no satisfaction in any other human context, bringing relief from the burden of guilt and anxiety about our future state we all carry when it's all up to us. "Come ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" means rest from the burden of sin we carry. "Take my yoke upon you for my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Also, that is what all the proscriptions on work on the sabbath mean and why it is so immensely important that they be carried out in order to assure people that salvation IS given by God: the sabbath is the day of rest from our work of saving ourselves, it stands for Jesus' whole mission of salvation, of taking our burden of sin off our backs and setting us free.

He frees us from the fear of death, and in that freedom we are freed to do all those good works from the heart-love you see described in the scriptures, that we could never do with love while we are under the burden of guilt and fear of death. That's the part you always consistently miss. You seem to think it's just a matter of doing good because it's good to do good, without recognizing that we are fallen and CAN'T do it until Christ liberates us. Then we happily do good for others because He has done such good for us. "We love Him because He first loved us." "Ye have been saved UNTO good works:" that is, the good works FOLLOW salvation and can't be done with joy and genuine love of neighbor until we are saved.

Remember how Luther struggled so mightily to confess all his sins? He knew that even a single unconfessed sin earned him an eternity of Hell. He piled on the confessions to his poor Confessor, always fearing he was missing something that would condemn him. The Confessor tried to convince him that God is merciful but Luther's knowledge of the scriptures told him that "God's windmills grind exceeding fine" and that God's holiness can't overlook a single sin, that the Law is inexorable. The Protestant Reformation began with his recognition that "The just shall live by faith," and that God's own righteousness is imputed to believers, and that that was the mission of the Savior. Until that recognition he said he could not love God at all, that he only hated Him, but with that recognition he finally had the rest and joy Christ brings us through His sacrifice.

Second point is that it is slighting Jesus Himself to trivialize His sacrifice as you do. And that sacrifice is huge. In saving individuals from all over the world He is "making for Himself a people" which otherwise we could not be. We couldn't belong to Him if we were not redeemed by His sacrifice and cleansed by His blood. We are a ruined creation and the only way we could be restored to purity is through His death for us. His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension reverses the Fall and inaugurates the New Creation which will come to fulfillment after His Second Coming, which is when He will come as conquering hero and the avenger of His people against the enemies of God.

"Don't you know you must be born again?" That is, we must be given the new heart God promises to believers in the OT, which is only given to us because of Jesus' sacrifice for us. DO you know that, GDR?

=========================
I'm sorry you think it's all just giving "pat answers" when the fact is that we tell what we've learned to be the truth. There is mystery enough in all these things to keep us learning for eternity, but your view of things somehow evades the core meaning of it all so that you end up with more "mysteries" than the scripture contains.

(In writing all this I feel my own guilt and how I don't deserve what Jesus did for me, and have to keep reminding myself that He came to save sinners like me. You think we all just take salvation as a Get out of Jail Free Card but a lot of us can't accept it that easily. There's something in us that feels we need to earn any goodness that comes to us, and some of us know we are such bad sinners it's hard to give up that feeling. Even though I know the gospel message I nevertheless fall back into my guilt and need to relearn it. That's true of a lot of us I think. Even though Jesus died to pay for our sins we know our sins are horrible affronts to Him and have to keep renewing our faith and asking His forgiveness and easily lose our assurance that we are saved. You seem to have confidence in your own personal ability to be good that a lot of us don't have, and maybe that's because you really are far less of a sinner than we are.)

Faith writes:

Is there any need at all for Jesus to have been "Wholly God" in your way of thinking?

Yes, as well as wholly man.

I asked because you've never said anything about why He needed to be God and you still aren't giving any explanation. According to your thinking it seems to me that there was no such need at all, it might as well have been a mere human being, like Paul as I suggested. So please explain just how He needed to be God according to your theology. Thanks.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 09-03-2019 10:44 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 09-05-2019 2:22 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 94 of 105 (862490)
09-05-2019 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
09-03-2019 9:27 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes:

But the Word exist4ed before Abraham, and that's a claim by Jesus to be God. Unless what you are saying is something more convoluted, such as that the Word is not even a person? That is, not the Second Persona of the Trinity?

The “Word” is God’s wisdom and nature with which He metaphorically spoke life into existence. Jesus, the 2nd member of the Trinity embodied that “Word”

Faith writes:

Of course. But I'm not sure how God Himself would "remember" such a "life in heaven." So what I'd say is that He knew He was God who came down from heaven. -- He was Wholly Man, remember? He prayed as a man would pray to God.

When you put those two statements together you have Jesus praying to Himself. You make the statement that Jesus was wholly man but anyone who thinks of himself as God who came down from heaven can hardly be wholly man.
Faith writes:

Why on earth wouldn't He? He was Wholly Man who had a completely human dread of suffering, especially such intense suffering as He knew was coming.

Certainly but you understand Him as knowing that He came down from heaven as God so again, you have Him praying to Himself.
GDR writes:

he fundamentalist message is essentially that you want to believe the tenants of the Christian faith in order to get yourself on the right side of things when you die.

Faith writes:

You put this with maximum cynicism about the motives of your fellow Christians.

You then go on to say the following:

Faith writes:

First, yes it is "all about me." All religions except Christianity require earning your way to whatever their version of salvation is, whether "paradise with 72 virgins" or "nirvana" (which is the cessation of the karma which condemns) or whatever. You get there by practicing their rules, moral rules or whatever rules they teach, usually moral, and most members of those religions know they can never succeed at the task and suffer guilt and anxiety as a result.
So some people who come from such religions to Christ are extremely grateful to find out that they can be saved without all that, which is very happy news ("good news" is what the word "gospel" means you know) since they know they could never accomplish it for themselves. What Jesus did is answer the longings of the human heart that have no satisfaction in any other human context, bringing relief from the burden of guilt and anxiety about our future state we all carry when it's all up to us. "Come ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" means rest from the burden of sin we carry. "Take my yoke upon you for my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Also, that is what all the proscriptions on work on the sabbath mean and why it is so immensely important that they be carried out in order to assure people that salvation IS given by God: the sabbath is the day of rest from our work of saving ourselves, it stands for Jesus' whole mission of salvation, of taking our burden of sin off our backs and setting us free.
He frees us from the fear of death, and in that freedom we are freed to do all those good works from the heart-love you see described in the scriptures, that we could never do with love while we are under the burden of guilt and fear of death. That's the part you always consistently miss. You seem to think it's just a matter of doing good because it's good to do good, without recognizing that we are fallen and CAN'T do it until Christ liberates us. Then we happily do good for others because He has done such good for us. "We love Him because He first loved us." "Ye have been saved UNTO good works:" that is, the good works FOLLOW salvation and can't be done with joy and genuine love of neighbor until we are saved.
Remember how Luther struggled so mightily to confess all his sins? He knew that even a single unconfessed sin earned him an eternity of Hell. He piled on the confessions to his poor Confessor, always fearing he was missing something that would condemn him. The Confessor tried to convince him that God is merciful but Luther's knowledge of the scriptures told him that "God's windmills grind exceeding fine" and that God's holiness can't overlook a single sin, that the Law is inexorable. The Protestant Reformation began with his recognition that "The just shall live by faith," and that God's own righteousness is imputed to believers, and that that was the mission of the Savior. Until that recognition he said he could not love God at all, that he only hated Him, but with that recognition he finally had the rest and joy Christ brings us through His sacrifice.

After you call me cynical you then go on to exactly confirm my point in that “Yes, it is all about Me”. That view of the Christian faith is 180 degrees from the message of Jesus. Just read the Gospels. What did Jesus say to the rich young man about inheriting eternal life. He didn’t say believe the right doctrine, He said give away your wealth. What are the two great commandments? Love God and neighbour, and Jesus tells us how to do love God and neighbour in the sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25, along with numerous other quotes in the Gospels. The whole Christian message is about sacrificial love not worrying about what’s going to happen to me when I die. God wants us to live life’s based on love of others and all of His creation and that He’ll look after what comes next.

Faith writes:

Second point is that it is slighting Jesus Himself to trivialize His sacrifice as you do.

The problem as I see it is just the opposite. If Jesus knew He was God when He went to the cross then He would know that there is pain and suffering involved, but He would know that it would all have a happy ending. Compare that to the numerous people who have loved sacrificially by giving up their lives for others based simply on the fact that that was the right thing to do, However, Jesus went to the cross on the faith, not knowledge, that this was His calling and that God was somehow going to redeem what it was He was doing.
Faith writes:

I asked because you've never said anything about why He needed to be God and you still aren't giving any explanation. According to your thinking it seems to me that there was no such need at all, it might as well have been a mere human being, like Paul as I suggested. So please explain just how He needed to be God according to your theology.

I’ve given an explanation as to how and why I worship Jesus as a deity, but I have no explanation of why God did it the way He did. I’m more concerned about what He did and maybe in the next life I’ll know why.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-03-2019 9:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 2:33 PM GDR has responded
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:00 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 105 (862493)
09-05-2019 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
09-05-2019 2:22 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
The “Word” is God’s wisdom and nature with which He metaphorically spoke life into existence. Jesus, the 2nd member of the Trinity embodied that “Word”

Therefore, as I said, when Jesus says that "Before Abraham was, I AM" whether He means Himself as the Second Person of the Trinity or as The Word, He is saying He is God.

The theologians who embrace "Wholly God and Wholly Man" also say that Jesus was quite conscious of His divine nature, merely deciding to live by His human nature only, so you and Wright are at odds with the whole Christian tradition. Jesus lived entirely by His human nature so when He prayed to God He prayed as Wholly Man.

You seem to show up just when I'm about to fall asleep at the computer and have to leave for a while. Oh well. See you later.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 09-05-2019 2:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 09-05-2019 3:26 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 96 of 105 (862502)
09-05-2019 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
09-05-2019 2:33 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes:

Therefore, as I said, when Jesus says that "Before Abraham was, I AM" whether He means Himself as the Second Person of the Trinity or as The Word, He is saying He is God.

No it simply means that He embodies God's nature, not God Himself.

Faith writes:

The theologians who embrace "Wholly God and Wholly Man" also say that Jesus was quite conscious of His divine nature, merely deciding to live by His human nature only, so you and Wright are at odds with the whole Christian tradition. Jesus lived entirely by His human nature so when He prayed to God He prayed as Wholly Man.

I'll try this from another perspective. As you know Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. AS you've acknowledged before this is a clear reference to Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and then given authority This then gives a sense of time which shows the Ancient of Days, (obviously God), existing prior to the Son of Man. You keep saying that he prayed to God as wholly man but how does that work if Jesus understood Himself as God?

Just a thought. Why don's you try reading abook by Wright and seeing what you think. I try and read different perspectives including yours. This is a book I'd suggest. Simply Good News

Faith writes:

You seem to show up just when I'm about to fall asleep at the computer and have to leave for a while. Oh well. See you later.

Hope you enjoyed the nap. I'm enjoying the discussion.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 2:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 8:39 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 105 (862515)
09-05-2019 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by GDR
09-05-2019 3:26 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
No it simply means that He embodies God's nature, not God Himself.

"...And the Word was God."

I'll try this from another perspective. As you know Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. AS you've acknowledged before this is a clear reference to Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and then given authority This then gives a sense of time which shows the Ancient of Days, (obviously God), existing prior to the Son of Man. You keep saying that he prayed to God as wholly man but how does that work if Jesus understood Himself as God?

This isn't making any sense to me. I don't understand your problem. If He is Wholly Man what does such timing matter? As Wholly Man He is able to pray to God.

Just a thought. Why don's you try reading abook by Wright and seeing what you think. I try and read different perspectives including yours. This is a book I'd suggest. Simply Good News

You are only too clear about Wright's theology and it's contrary to traditional and Reformation theology so I really have no reason to spend time on it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by GDR, posted 09-05-2019 3:26 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 105 (862516)
09-05-2019 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
09-05-2019 2:22 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Certainly but you understand Him as knowing that He came down from heaven as God so again, you have Him praying to Himself.

Generations of theologians from whom I get my basic views have no such idea. It's a really silly idea. I'm going with the generations of theologians.

After you call me cynical you then go on to exactly confirm my point in that “Yes, it is all about Me”.

Your version is cynical because you are accusing us of violating what Jesus taught, but mine is not cynical because I'm saying it's what the gospels teach and not a violation.

The "Me" shouldn't be capitalized.

That view of the Christian faith is 180 degrees from the message of Jesus. Just read the Gospels. What did Jesus say to the rich young man about inheriting eternal life. He didn’t say believe the right doctrine, He said give away your wealth. What are the two great commandments? Love God and neighbour, and Jesus tells us how to do love God and neighbour in the sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25, along with numerous other quotes in the Gospels. The whole Christian message is about sacrificial love not worrying about what’s going to happen to me when I die. God wants us to live life’s based on love of others and all of His creation and that He’ll look after what comes next.

I should look up a lot of Bible references to answer this so I may have to come back to it later. I gave lots of reasons why salvation is primary already, including Luther's hatred of God before He found out that God's own righteousness isn't a condemnation of him but a gift to him for his salvation. Jesus' death for us isn't something to compare with His commands to us since this is His work, not ours, and we are to receive it with gratitude. Being human we need God's salvation before we can do any good deeds in love. Then we have John's letter about how we can know we are saved, basically loving the brethren, a lot of emphasis on our salvation. Then Paul said somewhere that Jesus died as a "ransom for many." I also think of the "faith" chapter of Hebrews 11 where our salvation isn't the message but many people's personal concerns are fulfilled through faith, kind of selfish concerns to listen to you. Family members coming back to life, etc. "We love Him because He first loved us." God knows us, I get the impression you don't know us very well.

The problem as I see it is just the opposite. If Jesus knew He was God when He went to the cross then He would know that there is pain and suffering involved, but He would know that it would all have a happy ending. Compare that to the numerous people who have loved sacrificially by giving up their lives for others based simply on the fact that that was the right thing to do, However, Jesus went to the cross on the faith, not knowledge, that this was His calling and that God was somehow going to redeem what it was He was doing.

You sound like any old unbeliever with such accusations of Jesus. You really are trivializing Him. He died as a man, with human feelings.

I’ve given an explanation as to how and why I worship Jesus as a deity, but I have no explanation of why God did it the way He did. I’m more concerned about what He did and maybe in the next life I’ll know why.

Again everything you say sounds like there was no reason at all for Him to be God, that simply being a man like Paul should have been sufficient. Perhaps you accept that He is God based on scripture then without having any idea why it was necessary.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 09-05-2019 2:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 09-06-2019 1:01 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 99 of 105 (862551)
09-06-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
09-05-2019 9:00 PM


Re: Jesus' Earthly Limitations
Faith writes:

This isn't making any sense to me. I don't understand your problem. If He is Wholly Man what does such timing matter? As Wholly Man He is able to pray to God.

But if He was wholly God from the beginning then He is praying to Himself.

Faith writes:

You are only too clear about Wright's theology and it's contrary to traditional and Reformation theology so I really have no reason to spend time on it.

Heaven forbid that you might read anything that doesn’t confirm what you have decided to believe. Actually people like Tom Wright, Tim Keller etc go back to the Scriptures and the earlier theology. Yes the reformation did much to curb the excesses of the church, and Luther did much to improve the understanding of grace but it didn’t go far enough. With all of the new scholarship, the dead sea scrolls, the interconnectedness we have with the internet etc, there is a much better understanding of what the Scriptures are about, with emphasis on what a first century Jew listening to Jesus, a first century Jew, would understand.

Faith writes:

Generations of theologians from whom I get my basic views have no such idea. It's a really silly idea. I'm going with the generations of theologians.

There have also been generations of theologians that would disagree with you.

Faith writes:

Your version is cynical because you are accusing us of violating what Jesus taught, but mine is not cynical because I'm saying it's what the gospels teach and not a violation.

Not really. Your version of Christianity is neither what Jesus taught, and is actually anti-scriptural.

Faith writes:

I should look up a lot of Bible references to answer this so I may have to come back to it later. I gave lots of reasons why salvation is primary already, including Luther's hatred of God before He found out that God's own righteousness isn't a condemnation of him but a gift to him for his salvation. Jesus' death for us isn't something to compare with His commands to us since this is His work, not ours, and we are to receive it with gratitude. Being human we need God's salvation before we can do any good deeds in love. Then we have John's letter about how we can know we are saved, basically loving the brethren, a lot of emphasis on our salvation. Then Paul said somewhere that Jesus died as a "ransom for many." I also think of the "faith" chapter of Hebrews 11 where our salvation isn't the message but many people's personal concerns are fulfilled through faith, kind of selfish concerns to listen to you. Family members coming back to life, etc. "We love Him because He first loved us." God knows us, I get the impression you don't know us very well.

First off I agree that we are able to love because God loved us first. Also, I'm not saying that personal salvation isn't important but it isn't the main point. The point is to serve God's Kingdom and to take that love into His creation. Committing to Christ does make us more open to being guided by the Holy Spirit, but that has to do with the faith that we are to live lives based on sacrificial love. Remember also in Ephesians 1 Paul tells us that all things in Heaven and Earth will be brought together under Christ.

Faith writes:

You sound like any old unbeliever with such accusations of Jesus. You really are trivializing Him. He died as a man, with human feelings.

You say on the one hand that He died like a man but then you say that He had supernatural knowledge that He would be resurrected. Those two ideas are not compatible.

Faith writes:

Again everything you say sounds like there was no reason at all for Him to be God, that simply being a man like Paul should have been sufficient. Perhaps you accept that He is God based on scripture then without having any idea why it was necessary.

Once again you have pat answers of what people have come up with that give human answers to divine thinking How about just looking at what God has done without having to have an explanation for everything.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 1:57 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 105 (862556)
09-06-2019 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by GDR
09-06-2019 1:01 PM


Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
But if He was wholly God from the beginning then He is praying to Himself.

Not if He's praying AS MAN, and since He did EVERYTHING as man while on Earth that is what He is doing. He is NOT praying as GOD, He is praying as MAN because that's how He did EVERYTHING while on Earth.

ABE: He had to learn how to live as a man just as we all do, and He had to be in subjection to God as a man as we all are. His nature as God was always with Him from eternity, but His manhood was new to Him and had to be learned. And humanity is subordinate to God, so he was subordinate to God, and prayed as a man does, as needing God's power and wisdom as we all do. He was facing extreme suffering for us, paying for the sins of all believers, facing the satanic powers of darkness, so in Gethsemane He asked God if there was any way He could be spared, and learned that there wasn't: we couldn't be saved without His sacrifice in our place, and that means dying AS A HUMAN BEING since that's the only way He could die in the place of human beings. Since He had no sin in Himself He had to take on all our sins even in order to die, since a sinless person cannot die. All this had to be done AS A MAN.

With all of the new scholarship, the dead sea scrolls, the interconnectedness we have with the internet etc, there is a much better understanding of what the Scriptures are about, with emphasis on what a first century Jew listening to Jesus, a first century Jew, would understand.

There was no lack of scholarship over the centuries that we should need any "new" scholarship. By the time of the Reformation everything needed was available. The Dead Sea Scrolls offer nothing new by the way: all the Old Testament texts found add up to the same identical OT text we already had. I've received lots of teaching from the Jewish perspective, there's nothing left out about that.

---------------------\
No there have not been "generations of theologians that would disagree" with me, sorry. There are heretics that disagree with the theology I follow and there are occasional theologians who disagree with the theology I follow, there are NOT "generations of theologians" who disagree with the theology I follow. I'm not even claiming to know everything about the traditional theology since I often have to look things up, but there always turn out to be traditional views that do stand out as shared by "generations of theologians."

I'm not saying that personal salvation isn't important but it isn't the main point. The point is to serve God's Kingdom and to take that love into His creation. Committing to Christ does make us more open to being guided by the Holy Spirit, but that has to do with the faith that we are to live lives based on sacrificial love. Remember also in Ephesians 1 Paul tells us that all things in Heaven and Earth will be brought together under Christ.

Salvation is transformation. We are changed. We are no longer "mere flesh" but our spirit is "quickened" as the KJV puts it, we are "made alive" in a way we weren't before. Before we were "dead in our sins," now we are "alive to God." We are "born again from above." We are made fit for an entirely new life than the one we live on earth from our first physical birth. We are a "new creation," etc etc etc. Salvation is absolutely fundamental, and in fact if we are not born again any good works we do are, in the words of Isaiah, nothing but "filthy rags," which refers to menstrual rags in case you don't know that, meaning good works are only of value if they are done in God's power, or through "impregnation" by God's Spirit as it were. (Scripture can get pretty earthy at times as it were, but all these figures are metaphors for spiritual things.) And that is not possible unless we are born again of the Spirit. Unsaved people can do lots of good works but they don't have any ultimate value in God's eyes because that requires being done by His Spirit.

You say on the one hand that He died like a man but then you say that He had supernatural knowledge that He would be resurrected. Those two ideas are not compatible.

Scripture shows Him predicting His death AND resurrection many times before the fact. When He says the only sign to be given is the "sign of Jonah" He is saying He will be resurrected. Then there is this:

From that time Jesus began to show to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day (Matthew 16:21).

He knew he was to suffer and die AND BE RAISED on the third day. It couldn't be clearer, GDR, and yet there is no trivialization in scripture of what He suffered.

I got the above from a Blue Letter Bible page, and here's another important point made there:

The predictions by Jesus of His resurrection were of such common knowledge that it led the religious rulers to ask Pontius Pilate to secure the tomb.

So if I happen to have an explanation that means I need to have an explanation so that's why I have one? Oh well.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : 1

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 09-06-2019 1:01 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 09-07-2019 11:36 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 101 of 105 (862616)
09-07-2019 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
09-06-2019 1:57 PM


Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
Faith writes:

Not if He's praying AS MAN, and since He did EVERYTHING as man while on Earth that is what He is doing. He is NOT praying as GOD, He is praying as MAN because that's how He did EVERYTHING while on Earth.

You want to have it both ways. You say He knew He was God and that He knew that He would be resurrected. Why then, would He pray to Himself to avoid crucifixion?

Faith writes:

There was no lack of scholarship over the centuries that we should need any "new" scholarship. By the time of the Reformation everything needed was available. The Dead Sea Scrolls offer nothing new by the way: all the Old Testament texts found add up to the same identical OT text we already had. I've received lots of teaching from the Jewish perspective, there's nothing left out about that.

The Dead Sea Scrolls allowed scholars to understand the first century languages better than they had before is the point. You say that you have received lots of teaching from the Jewish perspective but as you agreed earlier you won't read anything that disagrees with the position you have already taken.

Faith writes:

No there have not been "generations of theologians that would disagree" with me, sorry. There are heretics that disagree with the theology I follow and there are occasional theologians who disagree with the theology I follow, there are NOT "generations of theologians" who disagree with the theology I follow. I'm not even claiming to know everything about the traditional theology since I often have to look things up, but there always turn out to be traditional views that do stand out as shared by "generations of theologians."

I'm sorry but that is just plain wrong.

Faith writes:

Salvation is transformation. We are changed. We are no longer "mere flesh" but our spirit is "quickened" as the KJV puts it, we are "made alive" in a way we weren't before. Before we were "dead in our sins," now we are "alive to God." We are "born again from above." We are made fit for an entirely new life than the one we live on earth from our first physical birth. We are a "new creation," etc etc etc. Salvation is absolutely fundamental, and in fact if we are not born again any good works we do are, in the words of Isaiah, nothing but "filthy rags," which refers to menstrual rags in case you don't know that, meaning good works are only of value if they are done in God's power, or through "impregnation" by God's Spirit as it were. (Scripture can get pretty earthy at times as it were, but all these figures are metaphors for spiritual things.) And that is not possible unless we are born again of the Spirit. Unsaved people can do lots of good works but they don't have any ultimate value in God's eyes because that requires being done by His Spirit.

People are saved because they have been given a job to do. Try thinking about the story of the Good Samaritan. A Samaritan was somebody that the Jews looked down for their different religious beliefs. However in the parable Jesus has the Jews walking by the one who needed help and the Samaritan was the one who provided it. It was the Jews that supposedly had Yahweh on their side but it was the Samaritan that had the heart to do the loving thing. Who then had the Holy Spirit.

Faith writes:

Scripture shows Him predicting His death AND resurrection many times before the fact. When He says the only sign to be given is the "sign of Jonah" He is saying He will be resurrected. Then there is this:

Yes. He predicted that He would be redeemed but it was on faith, not supernatural knowledge.

Faith writes:

He knew he was to suffer and die AND BE RAISED on the third day. It couldn't be clearer, GDR, and yet there is no trivialization in scripture of what He suffered.

No where did He claim that he would be resurrected. He did claim that God would raise Him up, which is not the same thing. We can go back to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man' is raised up or presented to the Ancient of Days. That is not the same thing as resurrection.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 1:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by AlexCaledin, posted 09-08-2019 4:55 AM GDR has responded
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-08-2019 1:33 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
AlexCaledin
Member
Posts: 56
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 102 of 105 (862618)
09-08-2019 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by GDR
09-07-2019 11:36 PM


Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
Jesus is both Son of Man - and God raising the Humanity from death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 09-07-2019 11:36 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-08-2019 5:49 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 09-08-2019 10:49 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 105 (862620)
09-08-2019 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by AlexCaledin
09-08-2019 4:55 AM


Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
Alex, tell me a bit about your experience with faith and belief. Do you come from a family of believers? Do you attend a church? Do you examine different sides and points of view when reading these discussions? I'm just curious is all.

Recognize this?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : added architecture


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by AlexCaledin, posted 09-08-2019 4:55 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 104 of 105 (862622)
09-08-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by AlexCaledin
09-08-2019 4:55 AM


Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
AlexCaledin writes:

Jesus is both Son of Man - and God raising the Humanity from death.

Hi Alex

This is about how Jesus understood Himself. It is how we see Jesus' place in the Trinity and how Jesus' self awareness in this life. Faith seems to think that Jesus knew that He would be resurrected prior to being crucified and it is my contention that He had the faith and belief that God the Father would in one way or another redeem Him, but without absolute knowledge.

This is from Acts7 and is a quote from what Stephen said just prior to being stoned to death:

quote:
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
This the is how Stephen, and the writer of Luke saw the relationship between the Father and the Son.

This then is an understanding that we would get from this passage in Daniel 7.

quote:
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this we can see that the very first followers of Jesus believed that Jesus' deity followed His life here. He was given dominion following being presented to the Ancient of Days.

Yes, the Bible is also clear that Jesus did fully embody God's nature but at the same time He did have the ability to reject that understanding, but through faith He held true to it. The temptation in the desert metaphorically shows that to be true.

So through that we can see Jesus as the Son, who along with the Father and the Spirit that speaks to all of us, constitute the Trinity and explains Jesus as wholly man and wholly God.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by AlexCaledin, posted 09-08-2019 4:55 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 105 (862630)
09-08-2019 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by GDR
09-07-2019 11:36 PM


Re: Did Jesus know He was going to be resurrected?
You want to have it both ways. You say He knew He was God and that He knew that He would be resurrected. Why then, would He pray to Himself to avoid crucifixion?

Because of the excruciating pain and suffering He would have to undergo as a human being.

We're just going around in circles now.

The Dead Sea Scrolls allowed scholars to understand the first century languages better than they had before is the point.

OK if so, but again the Hebrew texts of the Old Testament in the DSS were identical to ours, same Hebrew language, nothing new.

You say that you have received lots of teaching from the Jewish perspective but as you agreed earlier you won't read anything that disagrees with the position you have already taken.

I've read enough to understand that Wright is at least teetering on the verge of heresy if not totally heretical, so for me it's a waste of time.

You say I'm wrong that there isn't a whole other legitimate stream of scholarship than the traditional, but there just isn't. What names would you list? Oh well, don't, I think I've done this thread for now, we aren't going to get anywhere beyond where we are.

People are saved because they have been given a job to do. Try thinking about the story of the Good Samaritan. A Samaritan was somebody that the Jews looked down for their different religious beliefs. However in the parable Jesus has the Jews walking by the one who needed help and the Samaritan was the one who provided it. It was the Jews that supposedly had Yahweh on their side but it was the Samaritan that had the heart to do the loving thing. Who then had the Holy Spirit.

Nobody had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, but he was a solid believer in the scriptures. Your view of salvation is so far from the traditional -- Wright? -- what can I say? Salvation is what MAKES us able to obey on the level God requires of us, salvation is primary, salvation is foundational, it begins the changes toward eternal life. As usual you have the idea we must earn our benefits, in this case salvation, by already doing good works. Salvation is a GIFT, and God chooses the recipients. Salvation MAKES us able to do good works. Again we're going around in circles, or I am.

No where did He claim that he would be resurrected. He did claim that God would raise Him up, which is not the same thing.

Oh yes it is GDR. He said He would be "raised up the third day," which is the resurrection, and all the other references I gave say the same thing. The "sign of Jonah" is the promise of resurrection too.

We can go back to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man' is raised up or presented to the Ancient of Days. That is not the same thing as resurrection.

The term "raised up" is not used in that connection. It would refer to the Ascension rather than the resurrection anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 09-07-2019 11:36 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
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