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Author Topic:   The Dark Mountain Project: Secularism Gets Sober
Tangle
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Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 16 of 27 (862068)
08-31-2019 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
08-31-2019 2:46 AM


GDR writes:

Well, as I said I hope and pray that you are right.

I know you're sincere in that, but it would be far better if you'd do something that would actually help instead.

The countryside were I live is littered with ancient churches, I have three in my tiny village. They would have cost poor people an enormous amount in time, effort and money over a millennium to build and maintain and in the process built rich, powerful and divisive institutions that held back the progress of society.

If that effort had been put into building schools hospitals and our secular institutions for the good of the people instead of the worship of imaginary gods, our society would be in a far better state.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 2:46 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 10:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 12:45 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 17 of 27 (862074)
08-31-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
08-31-2019 2:58 AM


What have your secular institutions done?
quote:
The history of hospitals has stretched over 2500 years, starting with precursors in the Ascelpian temples in ancient Greece and then the military hospitals in ancient Rome, though no civilian hospital existed in the Roman empire until the Christian period.[1] Towards the end of the 4th century, the "second medical revolution"[2] took place with the founding of the first Christian hospital in the eastern Byzantine Empire by Basil of Caesarea, and within a few decades, such hospitals had become ubiquitous in Byzantine society.[3] The hospital would undergo development and progress throughout Byzantine, medieval European and Islamic societies, until the early modern era where care and healing would transition into a secular affair.[4]

From this wilk site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hospitals

...and it still happens all the time. Our small Anglican church provides about 50% of the funding for a home for young women in Uganda who would otherwise be in the street, we support a library in Ethiopia and a hospital in Kampala. We just had an event as a fund raiser for a seniors day program, the local hospital foundation and a local food bank. We had another fund raiser for the local humane society.

Just what have any of your local secular outfits done lately?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2019 2:58 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 27 (862081)
08-31-2019 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
08-31-2019 2:58 AM


Putting God first before Self
Tangle writes:

The countryside where I live is littered with ancient churches, I have three in my tiny village. They would have cost poor people an enormous amount in time, effort and money over a millennium to build and maintain and in the process built rich, powerful and divisive institutions that held back the progress of society.

While it is true that much time, money and effort could be said to be wasted in the buildings, there are many people in life who have done much to bring about a better world who have been educated through the church. One such notable man of influence was Romano Guardini. He reflects:
quote:
"God certainly does not dominate my life," confesses Romano Guardini, a devout German theologian. "Any tree in my path seems to have more power than he, if only because it forces me to walk around it!" Guardini goes on to wonder: How is it that God permeates the universe, that everything that is comes from his hand, that every thought and emotion we have has significance only in him, yet we are neither shaken nor inflamed by the reality of his presence, but able to live as though he did not exist? How is this truly Satanic deceit possible? 16-7
...AZPaul3 would no doubt claim that the reason is obvious: God does not exist. This simplistic explanation has nothing to stand on apart from the modern rationale that evidence of absence equates to absence of evidence.
Tangle writes:

If that effort had been put into building schools hospitals and our secular institutions for the good of the people instead of the worship of imaginary gods, our society would be in a far better state.

I believe that for some of us at least, (men such as Romano Guardini) the study and meditation of God as enriched their minds and led them into further sacred and secular studies both. One other point which I wish to address is your supposed indifference to even thinking about God. Philip Yancey expressed it this way:

Yancey writes:

I marvel at a God who puts himself at our mercy, as it were, allowing himself to be quenched and grieved, and even forgotten. Reading the Old Testament convinces me that this human tendency-indifference taken to a lethal extreme-bothers God more than any other. Gracious to doubters and a pursuer of willful unbelievers, God finds himself stymied, and even enraged, by those who simply put him out of mind. God reacts like any spurned lover who finds his phone calls unreturned and his Valentines tossed aside unopened. (...)I used to jump out of bed as soon as I woke up. Now I lie there in the quiet and invite God into my day, not as a participant in my life or an item on a checklist but as the hub of all that will happen that day. I want God to become the central reality so that I am as aware of God as I am of my own moods and desires.
Yancey, Philip. Reaching for the Invisible God (pp. 202-203). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

This central focus on God every day causes me to study a plethora of different things, many of them totally secular. (which you would argue is normal, of course) The Dark Mountain Project is basically secular and, as Theo pointed out, a bit New Age. It is insightful to a degree, however.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2019 2:58 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2019 2:07 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 19 of 27 (862082)
08-31-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
08-31-2019 10:23 AM


Re: What have your secular institutions done?
Our small Anglican church provides about 50% of the funding for a home for young women in Uganda who would otherwise be in the street, we support a library in Ethiopia and a hospital in Kampala. We just had an event as a fundraiser for a seniors day program, the local hospital foundation and a local food bank. We had another fundraiser for the local humane society.

Just what have any of your local secular outfits done lately?

They probably pass out condoms to teenagers! On a serious note, I have seen evidence of the usefulness of secular organizations. I just am stymied how they feel that the church isnt as useful. I think they see us the way the Televangelists portray us as. (themselves) There is a lot of Christianity...likely the most useful of us....who remain out of the spotlight and unseen.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 08-31-2019 10:23 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 08-31-2019 1:06 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 20 of 27 (862083)
08-31-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
08-31-2019 12:50 PM


Re: What have your secular institutions done?
Phat writes:

I think they see us the way the Televangelists portray us as.


Well, you seem to spout the same nonsensical theology.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 12:50 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 21 of 27 (862086)
08-31-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Thugpreacha
08-31-2019 12:45 PM


Re: Putting God first before Self
AZPaul3 would no doubt claim that the reason is obvious: God does not exist.

Guilty as charged.

Unless, of course, you can show otherwise.

This simplistic explanation has nothing to stand on apart from the modern rationale that evidence of absence equates to absence of evidence.

Just like garden fairies, centaurs and humanist republicans. No evidence, no thing.

Unless, of course, you can show otherwise.

[looking at the third wall] There's that damn pesky evidence requirement again.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 12:45 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2019 2:16 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 22 of 27 (862087)
08-31-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by AZPaul3
08-31-2019 2:07 PM


Re: Putting God first before Self
Phat quotes this pile of steaming dung and writes:

“I marvel at a God who puts himself at our mercy, as it were, allowing himself to be quenched and grieved, and even forgotten. Reading the Old Testament convinces me that this human tendency-indifference taken to a lethal extreme-bothers God more than any other. Gracious to doubters and a pursuer of willful unbelievers, God finds himself stymied, and even enraged, by those who simply put him out of mind. God reacts like any spurned lover who finds his phone calls unreturned and his Valentines tossed aside unopened. (...)I used to jump out of bed as soon as I woke up. Now I lie there in the quiet and invite God into my day, not as a participant in my life or an item on a checklist but as the hub of all that will happen that day. I want God to become the central reality so that I am as aware of God as I am of my own moods and desires.”

What is this Phat? This idiot thinks he knows how god feels. Do you not see what delirious garbage this is?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2019 2:07 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 4:01 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 27 (862088)
08-31-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
08-30-2019 5:53 PM


Re: Once again, what does the evidence show?
Theodoric was right--it is a New Age manifesto. What turns me off, but likely would mildly intrigue you all, is the idea that humanity is not central to the future, and that storytelling is the basic art.

DMP writes:

THE EIGHT PRINCIPLES OF UNCIVILISATION
We must unhumanize our views a little, and become confident
As the rock and ocean that we were made from.’

  • We live in a time of social, economic and ecological unraveling. All around us are signs that our whole way of living is already passing into history. We will face this reality honestly and learn how to live with it.

  • We reject the faith which holds that the converging crises of our times can be reduced to a set of ‘problems’ in need of technological or political ‘solutions’.

  • We believe that the roots of these crises lie in the stories we have been telling ourselves. We intend to challenge the stories which underpin our civilization: the myth of progress, the myth of human centrality, and the myth of our separation from ‘nature’. These myths are more dangerous for the fact that we have forgotten they are myths.

  • We will reassert the role of storytelling as more than mere entertainment. It is through stories that we weave reality.
    Humans are not the point and purpose of the planet. Our art will begin with an attempt to step outside the human bubble. By careful attention, we will reengage with the non-human world.

  • We will celebrate writing and art which is grounded in a sense of place and of time. Our literature has been dominated for too long by those who inhabit the cosmopolitan citadels.

  • We will not lose ourselves in the elaboration of theories or ideologies. Our words will be elemental. We write with dirt under our fingernails.

  • The end of the world as we know it is not the end of the world full stop.

  • Together, we will find the hope beyond hope, the paths which lead to the unknown world ahead of us.
  • jar writes:

    Is there even a single example of Jesus or God preventing any disaster or social breakdown?

    Of course not. These things *must* happen. The solution is to love God and love your neighbor. I might add that knowing God is a priority, but you will be unable to understand this basic bit...unless perhaps you might believe that in knowing our neighbor, we thus know God. New Age mumbo jumbo is very close to the Christianity that I believe in, yet miles apart.

    You say Christianity is about what you do. (not what you believe) In that regard, the Dark Mountain New Agers likely would agree. They, like Stile, would eliminate knowing God as a necessary first step and would advocate sharing with each other and loving each other. I fear, however, that without the Holy Spirit it is destined to fail.

    Are there not numerous examples of religious fervor causing disasters and social breakdowns?
    yes, many. My question would be how to tell apart a crowd based on obsessive fearful groupthink(authoritarianism) versus a crowd of individuals with no groupthink, varied beliefs, and a shared desire to simply bond with each other. The question is this: If a Holy Spirit exists and desires to commune with humans, which crowd would He,She, or It likely reside in?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 08-30-2019 5:53 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by jar, posted 08-31-2019 7:10 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12813
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 24 of 27 (862089)
    08-31-2019 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
    08-31-2019 2:16 PM


    Re: Putting God first before Self
    Tangle writes:

    What is this Phat? This idiot thinks he knows how god feels.

    Why should that bother you? You don't even believe that God exists.

    There is nothing wrong with people who believe in God and who struggle to understand Him. A wrong answer is better than no answer at all.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2019 2:16 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2019 5:19 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
     Message 27 by kjsimons, posted 08-31-2019 9:00 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7068
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.5


    (7)
    Message 25 of 27 (862092)
    08-31-2019 5:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Thugpreacha
    08-31-2019 4:01 PM


    Re: Putting God first before Self
    Phat writes:

    Why should that bother you? You don't even believe that God exists.

    It bothers me that you think it's normal and ok for people to tell other people that they know what god thinks and feels. It's dumb, crazy and delusional stuff.

    A wrong answer is better than no answer at all.

    That is just fucking stupid.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31288
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 26 of 27 (862097)
    08-31-2019 7:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Thugpreacha
    08-31-2019 3:58 PM


    Re: Once again, what does the evidence show?
    Phat writes:

    Of course not. These things *must* happen. The solution is to love God and love your neighbor. I might add that knowing God is a priority, but you will be unable to understand this basic bit...unless perhaps you might believe that in knowing our neighbor, we thus know God.

    First I'd need to know what even knowing your neighbor could possibly have to do with knowing God? But still no one has suggested anyway for anyone including themselves to know God or tell if they are communing with God.

    Phat writes:

    You say Christianity is about what you do. (not what you believe)

    No Phat, I point out that in the Bible Jesus says following him is about what you do not what you believe. Stop misrepresenting what I say.

    Phat writes:

    My question would be how to tell apart a crowd based on obsessive fearful groupthink(authoritarianism) versus a crowd of individuals with no groupthink, varied beliefs, and a shared desire to simply bond with each other. The question is this: If a Holy Spirit exists and desires to commune with humans, which crowd would He,She, or It likely reside in?

    More silly word salad.

    Sorry but that is all just nonsense.

    AbE:

    Phat writes:

    A wrong answer is better than no answer at all.

    I'm sorry but you just laid a new really dumb brick there Bubba. That's truly silly. It is the classic mantra of the Snake Oil Salesmen.

    Edited by jar, : see AbE:

    Edited by jar, : created ----> laid


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 3:58 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    kjsimons
    Member
    Posts: 670
    From: Orlando,FL
    Joined: 06-17-2003


    (1)
    Message 27 of 27 (862105)
    08-31-2019 9:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by Thugpreacha
    08-31-2019 4:01 PM


    Re: Putting God first before Self
    phat writes:

    A wrong answer is better than no answer at all.


    Sorry, no answer is better than a wrong answer anytime!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-31-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
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