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Author Topic:   Stories about prayer
Tangle
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Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 16 of 80 (862422)
09-05-2019 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
09-05-2019 12:42 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Faith writes:

I'm interested in the subject of answered prayer and want to choose examples where it seems clear that is what happened.

What you want to do is exactly what you did when you were sure you'd be raptured.

It's motivated thinking and confirmation bias - over-inflating the importance of hits, discarding misses and refusing to critically evaluate anything.

You're also trying to tell us that everyday, common events are somehow miraculous - that's just daft.

The efficacy of prayer has been properly tested; it doesn't work.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 12:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3712
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 17 of 80 (862423)
09-05-2019 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
09-05-2019 12:42 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
I'm interested in the subject of answered prayer and want to choose examples where it seems clear that is what happened.

Of course you are. And you even made some mention of the filtering process being used. But shouldn't you make your intentions as explicitly clear as possible?

Is your intention just to examine the extremely small set of what might be answered prayers? Or is your intention to imply that many prayers are answered?

If your intention is the former, then what aspects of those answered prayers are you interested in investigating?

If your intention is the latter, then you are in danger of misrepresenting your data set (also, I am assuming that you know what "former" and "latter" mean, which I realize could be a stretch).

There is an overall set of all events.

There is a subset of those events in which prayers were uttered. Given that the vast majority of those events involve multiple people, the probability that nobody within that sample had uttered any prayer at all, regardless of to whichever god.

Within that subset, there is a narrower subset of those whose prayers were to the Christian god.

Within that subset, there is a far narrower subset of those whose prayers could possibly be interpreted as having been answered.

You want to concentrate on that smallest, most narrow subset of events.

Just exactly how representative is that smallest, most narrow subset of events? And are you going to be honest about how small and narrow it is?

Why do I not feel optimistic about this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 12:42 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:52 AM dwise1 has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 80 (862442)
09-05-2019 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dwise1
09-05-2019 3:47 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Very simple case of being impressed with the couple of instances I described, no ulterior motives, not interested in proving anything statistical, not interested in how representative they are of the whole range of prayer experiences, just thought the cases were interesting in themselves and wanted to see if I could collect more of them. I also have the simpleminded aim of encouraging people to pray in difficult situations, and being simpleminded I forgot everything I say is going to be challenged.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2019 3:47 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2019 4:07 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 19 of 80 (862456)
09-05-2019 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2019 12:06 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

I believe that all prayers were answered that day.


Would that be the same "day" as Adam and Eve dying on the same "day" that they ate the fruit?

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 12:06 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 6:05 PM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3712
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 20 of 80 (862506)
09-05-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
09-05-2019 9:52 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
So the question remains unanswered: And are you going to be honest about how small and narrow [that set which consists of "answered prayers"] is?

IOW, a simple disclaimer and statement of intent so as to make your intentions quite clear. Shouldn't be too much to ask for or to suggest, yet this is suddenly becoming yet another inconvenient question for you to dodge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 8:19 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 80 (862509)
09-05-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
09-05-2019 12:16 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Good one! Actually, 9/11/2001 is a well known and documented day.

The larger question is whether:
1) God exists...and if so, hears and/or cares about prayer.
2)A praying individual has a better probability of survival than one who is silent or simply screams
3)Addressing the larger question as to why God only answers *some* prayers.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 09-05-2019 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 09-05-2019 6:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 22 of 80 (862510)
09-05-2019 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2019 6:05 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

The larger question is....


I'm more interested in the smaller question, the one I asked. If you can fudge a "day" in Genesis into a whole lifetime, how does God answering prayer "on the same day" work? Does it mean in my lifetime? Or Adam's lifetime?

Or is it just another sound bite with no meaning?

Phat writes:

... why God only answers *some* prayers.


As I mentioned to Faith, I answer *some* prayers. How is that different from what God does?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 6:05 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 11:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 80 (862512)
09-05-2019 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dwise1
09-05-2019 4:07 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
I have very few examples, I expect to have very few examples. Is that what you want me to say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2019 4:07 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2019 9:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3712
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 24 of 80 (862521)
09-05-2019 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-05-2019 8:19 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
And she ducks and dodges again. Sheesh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 8:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 80 (862522)
09-05-2019 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
09-05-2019 6:19 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of rule about the method and intention for answered prayer? Sorta like how you feel that God should protect us at all times from all plagues, accidents, and disasters if He in fact had the ability??

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 09-05-2019 6:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 11:58 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 80 (862526)
09-06-2019 3:21 AM


Not quite the right kind of example but I like it
Another instance on Forensic Files though it's not a clear one at all. Man convicted of raping and murdering a young woman confessed to it and keeps confessing to it when asked but eventually says he had been scared into confessing by threats from his interrogators and seeks the help of an organization to prove his innocence. In this process he describes himself as praying to God to help him get out of this mess he's gotten himself into.

Some time later, no indication how long, another prisoner has a "spiritual awakening," becomes a Christian and confesses to the crime. The first man had been convicted partly from forensic evidence so all that had to be reviewed and errors were found and corrected. Finally after twelve years he goes free and the man who had become a Christian accepts his guilt. Not at all a clearcut case of answered prayer but it's about believers in God and the truth finally coming out so justice could be done.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 27 of 80 (862545)
09-06-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2019 11:03 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of rule about the method and intention for answered prayer?


Am I stuttering? I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting.

For the third time: You said in Message 14, "I believe that all prayers were answered that day." (September 11, 2001) You also believe, if I recall correctly, that in Genesis 3, Adam and Eve did die "the same day" as they ate the fruit - but they actually lived a whole lifetime before they died. So does "that day" (September 11, 2001) also mean a whole lifetime? Are you allowing a whole lifetime for an answer to prayer? And whose lifetime? The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?

Phat writes:

Sorta like how you feel that God should protect us at all times from all plagues, accidents, and disasters if He in fact had the ability??


Well, I would, if I could. Wouldn't you? Why would we expect less from a god than we expect from each other? What would the value of that God be?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 11:03 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-06-2019 4:43 PM ringo has responded
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 80 (862572)
09-06-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
09-06-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
ringo writes:

The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?

I believe that they did. Granted their remaining lifetime was a matter of minutes. I believe that prayers made before September 11th would get answered. I believe that prayers made on September 11th, at the moment of awareness of mortality were earnest prayers and would be answered. It could well be that the people especially who jumped had the bolstered confidence of an answered prayer to give them the strength to do that. Of course, a room full of fire would drive anyone out. What makes you think that even atheists didn't have a desperate hope and belief of salvation...or leaving peace with family---milliseconds before they perished? Wghat else would one think about when their death was all but certain? Which leads to a rhetorical question: Are there atheists in foxholes? What do they think about should death come knocking? I would go so far as to argue that whatever is uttered in those final seconds resembles a prayer more than normal daily conversation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 1:04 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 80 (862573)
09-06-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
09-06-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
There are lots of miracle stories from 9/11, people who didn't go to the tower that day by some fluke, people who got out miraculously, people who got saved that day, a woman who in retrospect is sure it was an angel who helped her get out. I don't remember stories about prayer, but I do remember a lot of miracle stories.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 11:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2019 6:59 PM Faith has responded
 Message 32 by ramoss, posted 09-06-2019 10:42 PM Faith has responded
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 1:09 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6592
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 30 of 80 (862574)
09-06-2019 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
09-06-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
So those that died didn't believe enough? The deserved it?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 9:46 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
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