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Author Topic:   Stories about prayer
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2316
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 61 of 80 (862671)
09-09-2019 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
09-09-2019 4:00 PM


Re: yet more examples of mistaking claims for evidence.
You would think an all powerful god would provide evidence that could not be mistaken for anything else. Everyone is left guessing what this god wants.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 09-09-2019 4:00 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Stile, posted 09-10-2019 9:02 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 62 of 80 (862679)
09-10-2019 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tanypteryx
09-09-2019 5:54 PM


Re: yet more examples of mistaking claims for evidence.
Tanypteryx writes:

You would think an all powerful god would provide evidence that could not be mistaken for anything else. Everyone is left guessing what this god wants.

It leads to a very big argument against God.

If *I* was all-powerful, and created tiny-beings and wanted to be involved in their life and help them:
-I would want to give them clear direction
-I would not want to confuse them or leave doubt that may possibly lead them down an incorrect path
-I would want them to have tools to correctly identify the reality I created around them
-I would NOT want to play some "tee-hee" game about keeping my existence a mystery to see who may and who may not "believe in" me. What does this even do other than feed the ego of a child-like being?

Therefore, if *I* would do things better, and this makes God out to be a child and God is supposed to be "very good" and "cares about us," then:
1. God does not exist.
or
2. God exists, but is not all powerful - He helps us as much as He can, but is not capable of getting around these seemingly-childish games.
or
3. God exists, but is not "very good" - He is child-like (or possibly malevolent) and enjoys playing with us for one reason or another.

It no longer leaves room for an "all powerful" being who "loves humans."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-09-2019 5:54 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 63 of 80 (862681)
09-10-2019 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Stile
09-10-2019 9:02 AM


Not really an argument against GOD but only some gods.
It might be an argument about some gods but I don't see how it is an argument about GOD.

Consider the God found in Genesis 1. That God creates simply by an act of will, and creates once then moves on to the next creation. That God has no contact with any of the creation and looks on all of them equally and judges the work good.

But that God is aloof and separate. It would not care what the creation thought.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 80 (862682)
09-10-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tanypteryx
09-09-2019 5:54 PM


Re: yet more examples of mistaking claims for evidence.
You would think an all powerful god would provide evidence that could not be mistaken for anything else. Everyone is left guessing what this god wants.

I don't know who this "everyone" is who is "left guessing." The Bible really doesn't leave us in the dark at all, but if you want to know the answer to questions about Him you have to BELIEVE what it says. That's "what He wants" and He's very clear about that. You all are looking into your own minds and into worldly assumptions to find the answer to questions you can't find that way. I mean you, Stile, jar and others on this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-09-2019 5:54 PM Tanypteryx has responded

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 80 (862683)
09-10-2019 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
09-10-2019 10:32 AM


Re: Not really an argument against GOD but only some gods.
remind us of the construct again?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 09-10-2019 10:32 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 66 of 80 (862684)
09-10-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
09-10-2019 10:32 AM


Re: Not really an argument against GOD but only some gods.
jar writes:

Consider the God found in Genesis 1. That God creates simply by an act of will, and creates once then moves on to the next creation. That God has no contact with any of the creation and looks on all of them equally and judges the work good.

But that God is aloof and separate. It would not care what the creation thought.

How is this not equivalent to a God that exists, but is not "very good" towards humans?
Which is possibility #3 I explained above.

I think we agree, and we're just describing the same thing differently.
My phrasing may have been unclear, but point #3 is intended to include the situation you're describing above.


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 Message 63 by jar, posted 09-10-2019 10:32 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 67 of 80 (862686)
09-10-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Thugpreacha
09-09-2019 3:15 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

In this case, the critics I was referring to were other believers.


What you said was, "Critics will say that we believers would be reprobates without Him...whereas *they* would still do the right thing...." (Message 54). That seems to separate the critics from the believers.

Phat writes:

And there is no collective *we*.


There really is though. There's you and the apologists that you follow and the others who follow the same apologists. If you really did have your own ideas as to what's real, you wouldn't all be parroting the same party line.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

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 Message 59 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-09-2019 3:15 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 80 (862688)
09-10-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
09-09-2019 11:46 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
We unbelievers actually have a higher opinion of you believers than you have of yourselves.
I wouldn't go patting myself on the back just yet. Unbelievers have a higher opinion of humanity-at-large because that is the future they believe in. They will claim that this is all that anyone has...believers included. I reject though cannot objectively prove my counter-position. This is what frustrates me to no end about jar. Though claiming to belong to a recognized Christian Church, he forever argues that humanity creates its own Gods....which makes a conversation with him regarding GOD rather difficult. Its all more Jewish than Episcopalian, in my mind... Look at Spinoza, for example. Spinozas Religion

Some snippets:

quote:
Lately, atheists have gone on a publishing offensive. Although wishing to give the impression that their highbrow books buck the trend, in reality, they preach to the converted. For casual and confident disbelief in religious faith is the dominant view at our major newspapers, national tv networks and radio stations, and certainly at our leading universities. However strong faith may be in the heartland, few and far between are the reporters and editors, correspondents and anchors and producers, professors and university administrators who take seriously the idea of a mysterious and commanding God, creator of the heavens and earth, who has formed human beings in His image and who demands justice, kindness, and humility from humanity.

Nevertheless, best-selling author Sam Harris in The End of Faith and Letters to a Christian Nation, distinguished Oxford University biologist Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, and all-star journalist and irrepressible man-of-letters Christopher Hitchens in God Is Not Great are mad as hell about the persistence of belief in God, and they don’t want to take it anymore. Religion, for them, is the root of a great portion of the evil in the world. They decry faith as certainly false and clearly irrational, sustained today, as ever, by ignorance, obscurantism, credulity, cowardice, and, not least, the sinister skill with which crafty clerics exploit the all-too-human craving for the comforting illusion that the suffering and injustices of this world will be corrected in another. Our sophisticated and outspoken atheists, suffused with anti-theological ire, are, in short, faithful heirs of Voltaire’s call — “Écraser l’infâme!” — to crush traditional religious belief.


And this is what I see. Atheists are getting ever more bold in using logic, reason, and reality to build an aggressive case against the rationality of belief.
Of course, it is easy to blame it all on a spiritual war, but I unabashedly do so, aware of the impossibility of proving that either.

More:

quote:
Of course, there are secular Republicans and believing Democrats. But scratch the surface of the opinions of men and women of the left and you will find, more often than not, the conviction that though we are alas obliged to tolerate it, religion — and particularly biblical faith — is at its core intolerant and a menace to liberty and democracy.

Unfortunately, our neo-Voltaireans ill-serve toleration, liberty, and democracy. Nor do they advance the cause of knowledge. Their heavy reliance on scorn, mockery, and ridicule to defeat, once and for all, their self-proclaimed enemy contravenes the commitment to rational argument, grounded in observation and experience, in whose name they would consign religion to the dustbin of history. Moreover, our militant atheists distort or render invisible religious believers’ self-understanding.


I'm still reading...nore comments later.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 09-09-2019 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-10-2019 12:19 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 69 of 80 (862689)
09-10-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Thugpreacha
09-10-2019 12:09 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

Unbelievers have a higher opinion of humanity-at-large because that is the future they believe in.


We have a higher opinion of humanity because we're not encumbered by that nonsense about a "Fall". We're free to believe we can do better. In fact, other religions also have a higher opinion of humanity than you evangelical Christians.

Phat writes:

This is what frustrates me to no end about jar. Though claiming to belong to a recognized Christian Church, he forever argues that humanity creates its own Gods....which makes a conversation with him regarding GOD rather difficult.


I know you'd rather quote apologists than actually think about the issues.

Phat writes:

Its all more Jewish than Episcopalian, in my mind...


A lot of people could stand to be more Jewish.

Phat writes:

Look at Spinoza, for example.


I notice that your quote is about Spinoza and not from Spinoza. Why not let Spinoza speak for himself?

Phat writes:

Atheists are getting ever more bold in using logic, reason, and reality to build an aggressive case against the rationality of belief.


Do you hear yourself? You're talking about logic, reason and reality as if it was a bad thing.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2019 12:09 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2316
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 70 of 80 (862695)
09-10-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
09-10-2019 11:27 AM


Re: yet more examples of mistaking claims for evidence.
Faith writes:

I don't know who this "everyone" is who is "left guessing." The Bible really doesn't leave us in the dark at all, but if you want to know the answer to questions about Him you have to BELIEVE what it says.

Well, that would be the billions of people who would never trust anything you say about the bible or anything else.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 09-10-2019 11:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 80 (862696)
09-10-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Stile
09-10-2019 9:02 AM


It was meant to be by Faith alone
Stile writes:

-I would NOT want to play some "tee-hee" game about keeping my existence a mystery to see who may and who may not "believe in" me. What does this even do other than feed the ego of a child-like being?

The just shall live by faith...not evidence.

If you had a rich uncle, how do you know that people were not only being nice to him because he had money?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Stile, posted 09-10-2019 9:02 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 09-10-2019 1:28 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 77 by Stile, posted 09-11-2019 12:32 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 72 of 80 (862697)
09-10-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Thugpreacha
09-10-2019 1:14 PM


Re: It was meant to be by Faith alone
Phat writes:

The just shall live by faith...not evidence.


You're embellishing. Habakkuk does not rule out evidence.

And remember the story of Thomas. Jesus offered evidence to the other disciples and then to Thomas.


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2019 1:14 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 73 of 80 (862702)
09-10-2019 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Stile
09-10-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Not really an argument against GOD but only some gods.
Well it could be a God that simply does not select humans for special consideration,; one that sees ALL creation as good. The God in Genesis 1 saw all that was created as Very Good and so saw pond scum and humans and skunks and squezalls as equally good.

As I said, some Gods can be eliminated but not all GODS.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Stile, posted 09-10-2019 11:52 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 74 of 80 (862703)
09-10-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Thugpreacha
09-10-2019 12:09 PM


Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian
Phat, Phat, Phat.

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was never a Christian.

Not sure I've ever pointed that out to you but Jesus was born a Jew, circumcised as a Jew, educated as a Jew, preached to Jews and in the Synagogue, lived as a Jew and died a Jew convicted under Jewish Law.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2019 12:09 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6592
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 75 of 80 (862705)
09-10-2019 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
09-10-2019 5:19 PM


Re: Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian
Or not.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 09-10-2019 5:19 PM jar has not yet responded

    
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