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Author Topic:   Jesus Among Secular Gods
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 10 of 94 (863381)
09-25-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
09-25-2019 11:00 AM


what jar has said.
GDR writes:

I don’t recall jar saying that we should “throw God away” but although he is a Christian his beliefs, as near as I can tell, don’t differ from those of a secular humanist.

Yup, not just say but very strongly believe we would be better if all mankind threw "God" away. Throw away the God(s) and god(s) that man creates; GOD is not the God of Genesis 1 or the God of Genesis 2&3 or the Sunni Allah or the Shiite Allah or Ganesha or Coyote or Raven or Shiva or Ra or any of the other Gods and gods that man has created.

We need to stop creating God in Man's image.

But I have outlined what my beliefs are several times here; most thoroughly in Belief Statement - jar.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 11:00 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 5:40 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 16 of 94 (863438)
09-25-2019 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by GDR
09-25-2019 5:40 PM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

The problem is that you post like a theist but then you say what you do in the quote above you are essentially expressing a deistic POV.

I don't think so; what I am saying is that so far no one has ever presented anyway to actually identify or test to show something is supernatural. I believe GOD exists but understand that is simply a belief with no supporting evidence. Nor do I see anyway anyone alive could ever even produce such evidence.

GDR writes:

I agree that all religion is a man made attempt to understand why we are here, from a POV that we are the result of an intelligent agent. From there we attempt to understand the nature of that intelligence and what it should mean to our lives.

Yeah, I believe you do believe that but I really can't see any point or relevance or reason for such an effort or process.

GDR writes:

If however we believe in a deity that commands us to be peace keepers, to be merciful, to love others as we love ourselves etc, then I have to question why would you want to throw that god away. Belief in a deity like that will at the very least give humans a foundational belief in how our lives should be lived that is positive.

Well, first off, such a God is unnecessary and still simply creates yet another God in that particular image. Why not just give humans a foundational belief to be peace keepers, to be merciful, to love others as we love ourselves etc?

I believe GOD exists but have absolutely no reason to think GOD will be like anything I can imagine.

I believe there is life after death.

I believe that humans at least will be judged after death.

I believe that the basics of Jesus message, his teachings are a valid guideline for living ones life.

I believe that what I believe is also totally irrelevant to anyone except me.

But I am a Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 5:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 09-26-2019 12:19 AM jar has responded
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 12:02 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 24 of 94 (863463)
09-26-2019 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
09-26-2019 12:19 AM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

Here are a couple of thoughts on that. Essentially you are saying that you believe that God exists but that the god that you believe in isn't involved in the world that we live in.

No and you cannot find anywhere I have said that is what I believe; but of course you can find that God in Genesis 1.

GDR writes:

As far as evidence goes there is evidence all around us. Our whole body is made up of mindless particles and yet we have consciousness. We can appreciate beauty. We have a sense of morality. We are able to love, even sacrificially. That is evidence of something, and yes we can only come to subjective conclusions that form our beliefs, but it is evidence.

But it is not evidence of anything supernatural.

GDR writes:

If we feel led to go to the aid of a homeless individual is that because we have listened to that still small voice? if it is, then is that supernatural? Does that still small voice even exist or has it simply evolved out of mindlessness?

No one knows. The best evidence is that it is a simple product of being alive. There is no evidence of anything supernatural there.

GDR writes:

As a Christian don't you think that you can look at Jesus to give you an understanding of God?

Absolutely not. The story of Jesus can give us an understanding of what it means to be a human.

GDR writes:

I'm not questioning that, but I again ask what as a Christian do you believe that a secular humanist couldn't also believe in?

I believe there is a GOD and that there is life after death and I will be judged based on how I have lived my life.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 09-26-2019 12:19 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 11:09 AM jar has responded
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 6:50 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 26 of 94 (863476)
09-26-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
09-26-2019 11:09 AM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:

I do. jar seems more Jewish than Christian, though he insists he belongs to a club.

Jesus was a Jew not a Christian Phat.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

The story of Jesus can give us an understanding of what it means to be a human.

How? It looks more like a charge. And I might ask: A charge from Whom? This whole idea of personal responsibility and doing your best came from Judaism.

Really? Did Jesus not tell us that we should love our brother as ourselves; that we will be judged based one how we treat the least of these or brothers?

Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat? Jesus taught stories teaching humans how to behave. He showed compassion and did what was needed by the particular individual or situation. Jesus set an example of what it means to be a human.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 11:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 11:58 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 30 of 94 (863484)
09-26-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
09-26-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Canon Fodder
HUH?

Who is revising a Canon?

Why would they eliminate it?

What is needed is to help Christians learn the basics of Christian History. John is not one of the Synoptic Gospels for a reason.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 12:14 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 32 of 94 (863488)
09-26-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
09-26-2019 12:02 PM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:

The point is that many believe that the supernatural is a part of reality, despite no (Objective) evidence. Do you find the idea of a supernatural God laughable? Is your belief formed soley through evidence? What specifically about the God that is marketed by today's apologists do you find objectionable?

The basic and most glaring and utter ********** is confusing beliefs with facts. When they claim something is a miracle that is simply *********. When they claim the supernatural exists that is simply *********.

If they simply claim they believe those things and understand that there is absolutely no evidence to support those claims then that is not *********. If though they make the claims without also making it clear that there is no evidence to support their assertions and it is only their beliefs, they are committing the sin of omission.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 12:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 11:18 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 39 of 94 (863573)
09-27-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
09-27-2019 11:18 AM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:

What if the ******** Biblical Christians happened to be right? The issue at that point is your response to such a loving presence. You have said before that you would likely laugh. But would you cry? Be angry? Ask more questions and never settle for what you see? Or would you do as Billy Graham might have suggested and just simply surrender?

What if chocolate turns out to be Key Lime?

You ask absurd questions that of course have no honest answer beyond "I don't know but I certainly hope I would not simply surrender like an abject coward."


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 11:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 12:46 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 42 of 94 (863586)
09-27-2019 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
09-27-2019 12:46 PM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:

GOD is unknowable (despite Jesus) and there is no way to have evidence that GOD or Jesus ever existed.

Again, not what I have said. What I have said is that so far absolutely no one has ever presented either evidence of the existence of GOD or Jesus or any way that it might be possible to know GOD or Jesus.

If someone can present the model, process, method, mechanism or procedure to do such things then we could begin testing.

Phat writes:

Surrendering to God or Jesus..which is at best metaphorical...is cowardly.

Again, not what I have said. Simply surrendering to an all powerful despot is cowardly.

Phat writes:

Entitlement, favor, and chosen people are all lies.

No Phat but they are very easy to market fantasies with absolutely no legal risk and no fear of product liability suits.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 12:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 3:41 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 44 of 94 (863596)
09-27-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
09-27-2019 3:41 PM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:

Nor do I see that Jesus can be properly defined as a despot.

Do you see Jesus as holding absolute power?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 3:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 4:52 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 47 of 94 (863608)
09-27-2019 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
09-27-2019 4:52 PM


Re: what jar has said.
If he has absolute power than he is by definition a despot.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 4:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 09-30-2019 3:00 AM jar has responded
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 10-05-2019 12:58 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 49 of 94 (863689)
09-28-2019 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
09-28-2019 6:50 PM


Re: The God Meme
GDR writes:

However, if it is the God meme reaching into our lives then I’d suggest that is supernatural. Would you consider a God meme to be supernatural?

I would consider that Word Salad with no meaning or content.

GDR writes:

I’d say that it is both. I go along with what John 1 says when he says the Word became flesh. (As an aside John says that the Word became flesh and not a book.) If we want to understand God’s nature we look to the life and teaching of Jesus.

Again, not at all sure what that even means or what looking to the life and teaching of Jesus tells us about God's nature.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 6:50 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 7:41 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 52 of 94 (863693)
09-28-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by GDR
09-28-2019 7:41 PM


Re: The God Meme
GDR writes:

Do you consider the God that you say you believe in to have any particular morality, and does God have empathy with people. I'm suggesting that as Christians we should be able to look at the morality and empathy of Jesus for the answer to the question.

The God I create? Yes. GOD? No idea. I'm not even sure that a concept of morality has any meaning outside our on construction. I can hope that is the case.

I agree we can look at Jesus teaching and see morality and empathy but I not sure how that would tell us anything about GOD. It's clear that quite a few of the descriptions of God in the Bible describe either an immoral God or an amoral one.

But I also see it as irrelevant beyond my personal beliefs. Regardless I believe the charge is the same; run the race, fight the Good fight ...


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 7:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 7:59 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 54 of 94 (863695)
09-28-2019 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by GDR
09-28-2019 7:59 PM


Re: The God Meme
GDR writes:

Do you believe that there is anything special about Jesus, other than that He was a good man?

Again, I strongly believe that whatever I believe is totally irrelevant.

But personally I need to answer in terms of Jesus while alive and living on earth, a period of about 30 years. At that time I believe Jesus was totally human, not GOD, not divine, not supernatural.

Before then and after his ascension is entirely different. Between his death, resurrection and before ascension I honestly have no idea. The stories are as is so often the case contradictory and very unreliable. There is the tales of him simply appearing to people but also the Thomas story where it is implied he was very much corporeal.

Again though, I am very sure that if there is life after death I will learn that everything I believed was simply nonsense.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 7:59 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 09-29-2019 6:19 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 58 of 94 (863763)
09-30-2019 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
09-30-2019 3:00 AM


Re: what jar has said.
Sheesh Phat, read the Bible. Try it, you might even like it.

Look at the descriptions of God in the Bible. They are filled with descriptions of a despot and quite often an immoral despot.

Phat, it is not what I claim it is what is actually written in the Bible.

Do you believe Jesus and God are one?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 09-30-2019 3:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 09-30-2019 12:14 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32348
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 60 of 94 (863816)
09-30-2019 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
09-30-2019 12:14 PM


Re: what jar has said.
Well Phat, first Islam like Judaism says there there is no such thing as the Trinity; the Trinity is solely a Christian marketed product and only Trinitarian Christianity at that.

But the issue is that the God character in the Bible is quite often an immoral or at best amoral critter.

To claim Jesus is God needs qualifiers such as Jesus is God but not the God of Genesis 1 or the God of Genesis 2&3 or the God of the Exodus saga or ... (the list goes on).


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 09-30-2019 12:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 3:18 PM jar has responded
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 10-02-2019 7:08 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
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