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Author Topic:   Jesus Among Secular Gods
jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 16 of 94 (863438)
09-25-2019 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by GDR
09-25-2019 5:40 PM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

The problem is that you post like a theist but then you say what you do in the quote above you are essentially expressing a deistic POV.

I don't think so; what I am saying is that so far no one has ever presented anyway to actually identify or test to show something is supernatural. I believe GOD exists but understand that is simply a belief with no supporting evidence. Nor do I see anyway anyone alive could ever even produce such evidence.

GDR writes:

I agree that all religion is a man made attempt to understand why we are here, from a POV that we are the result of an intelligent agent. From there we attempt to understand the nature of that intelligence and what it should mean to our lives.

Yeah, I believe you do believe that but I really can't see any point or relevance or reason for such an effort or process.

GDR writes:

If however we believe in a deity that commands us to be peace keepers, to be merciful, to love others as we love ourselves etc, then I have to question why would you want to throw that god away. Belief in a deity like that will at the very least give humans a foundational belief in how our lives should be lived that is positive.

Well, first off, such a God is unnecessary and still simply creates yet another God in that particular image. Why not just give humans a foundational belief to be peace keepers, to be merciful, to love others as we love ourselves etc?

I believe GOD exists but have absolutely no reason to think GOD will be like anything I can imagine.

I believe there is life after death.

I believe that humans at least will be judged after death.

I believe that the basics of Jesus message, his teachings are a valid guideline for living ones life.

I believe that what I believe is also totally irrelevant to anyone except me.

But I am a Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 5:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 09-26-2019 12:19 AM jar has responded
 Message 29 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2019 12:02 PM jar has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6244
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 17 of 94 (863439)
09-25-2019 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
09-25-2019 11:59 AM


Re: Christian
Hi GDR

GDR writes:

I suppose if someone wants to sincerely call themselves a Christian then who am I to say they aren't.

I quit asking people a long time ago if they were a Christian. I was told too many times, "yes, I am a Christian I was born in America.

That just don't pass muster.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 11:59 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6244
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 18 of 94 (863440)
09-25-2019 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
09-25-2019 3:07 PM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

Believing the evidence away is not kosher.

What is the difference in that and believing there is evidence where there is none, only assumptions.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 09-25-2019 3:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 09-26-2019 11:36 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6244
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 19 of 94 (863441)
09-26-2019 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by GDR
09-25-2019 5:12 PM


Re: Christian
Hi GDR

GDR writes:

IMHO that phrase "born again" is often badly misused. It seems to be so often used to relate to a specific time that someone gives ascent to some form of Christian doctrine. The term "born again" occurs in 2 books of the Bible. It is used in reply to Nicodemus in John 3 and again in ! Peter 1 where it agrees that they have been born again as their hearts have been changed to hearts that reflect God's love into the world. No where does it say that it is about accepting any particular doctrine.

Doctrine comes after you are God's child and have got off the milk of the Word and reached the point you can chew on the meat of the Word.

quote:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Jesus told Nicodemus that a man had to be born again to just see the kingdom of heaven. If you could not see the kingdom of heaven then you could not enter into it.

Now lets look at what that birth is.

Jesus explained that a man had to have two births to see the kingdom of heaven.
The first birth is where mom conceives and carries a child until birth. That birth being a water birth as the child is carried in an amniotic sac filled with the child and amniotic fluid.
When this sac breaks and dispels the fluid birth take place pretty soon. So Jesus was referring to a natural birth as the first birth.

So the second birth is a spiritual birth. Literally a birth from above when the Holy Spirit comes in and seals a persons spirit until the day of redemption.

I am going to explain how that happens by telling you what happened to me. We were having a revival in the church I attended and were in the third week of revival which would be the last week as school would be starting soon.

On August 19, 1949 I was in services and actually heard what the preacher said for a change. (A nine year and 11 month old boy was usually not paying much attention) But this night I was and when the invitation was given I wanted to be saved and have that eternal life the preacher talked about but I went home lost. I ate a snack and went to bed and fell asleep. But sometime during the night, I don't know when as there was no clock in the room. But laying in the bed and thinking of the scriptures and message the preacher had preached I knew I needed to be saved. He had preached from John 3:16, 17, and 18. Verse 18 is the one that was keeping me awake.

quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The preacher had explained that all I had to do to be saved and have eternal life was to believe Jesus would give me eternal life, just by asking and trusting totally in Him to do what He said He would do. I trusted Jesus and received a full pardon for my sins and the Holy Spirit to seal my spirit. Thus I was born again of the spirit of God to walk in a newness of life. So no I have only been born again and saved one time.

GDR writes:

At age 80 here's hoping you've been born again, and again, and again.....

I have had one physical birth and one spiritual birth. Physical birth September 26, 1939 at 4:30 pm. Spiritual birth August 19, 1949 hour unknown.

Everyone here has had a physical birth.
I am hoping you and others here have had a spiritual second birth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 5:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 20 of 94 (863442)
09-26-2019 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-25-2019 10:02 PM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

The problem is that you post like a theist but then you say what you do in the quote above you are essentially expressing a deistic POV.

jar writes:

I don't think so; what I am saying is that so far no one has ever presented anyway to actually identify or test to show something is supernatural. I believe GOD exists but understand that is simply a belief with no supporting evidence. Nor do I see anyway anyone alive could ever even produce such evidence.

Here are a couple of thoughts on that. Essentially you are saying that you believe that God exists but that the god that you believe in isn't involved in the world that we live in. That is deism.

As far as evidence goes there is evidence all around us. Our whole body is made up of mindless particles and yet we have consciousness. We can appreciate beauty. We have a sense of morality. We are able to love, even sacrificially. That is evidence of something, and yes we can only come to subjective conclusions that form our beliefs, but it is evidence.

If we feel led to go to the aid of a homeless individual is that because we have listened to that still small voice? if it is, then is that supernatural? Does that still small voice even exist or has it simply evolved out of mindlessness?

GDR writes:

I agree that all religion is a man made attempt to understand why we are here, from a POV that we are the result of an intelligent agent. From there we attempt to understand the nature of that intelligence and what it should mean to our lives.

jar writes:

Yeah, I believe you do believe that but I really can't see any point or relevance or reason for such an effort or process.

Well there have been countless philosophers and theologians who have spent their lives trying to answer that question. They certainly saw relevance and reason in trying to answer that question.

If we are the result of a deity then it seems reasonable to at least suspect that we are here with some kind of purpose. It seems reasonable and relevant to me to attempt to discern that purpose and react to it.

jar writes:

Why not just give humans a foundational belief to be peace keepers, to be merciful, to love others as we love ourselves etc?

If we can't reject it we can't choose it.

jar writes:

I believe GOD exists but have absolutely no reason to think GOD will be like anything I can imagine.

As a Christian don't you think that you can look at Jesus to give you an understanding of God?

jar writes:

I believe that the basics of Jesus message, his teachings are a valid guideline for living ones life.

Why believe that over a belief in anyone else?

jar writes:

I believe that what I believe is also totally irrelevant to anyone except me.

It seems to me that somewhere you said you taught sunday school. You must have believed that your beliefs were relevant to the kids in your class.

jar writes:

But I am a Christian.

I'm not questioning that, but I again ask what as a Christian do you believe that a secular humanist couldn't also believe in?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-25-2019 10:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 7:47 AM GDR has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6244
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 21 of 94 (863443)
09-26-2019 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
09-25-2019 6:29 PM


Re: Christian
Hi GDR

GDR writes:

I don't disagree with that but it isn't something that is confined to a specific time or place. It is a response that gradually begins to respond to that still small voice that calls us to do the loving thing even though there is personal cost to it. Ideally over time the response continues to grow until it becomes normal to us

You are not describing someone being born again.

You are describing a person that decides to serve the Lord and sets out on a journey of doing good deeds in order to gain favor with God. Then after that journey has lasted a long time the person has convinced himself/herself that they have arrived and deserve to be in heaven and is now saved.

That is getting the cart before the horse. You have to be born again before you can do one good deed that God even sees. The verse I quoted in the previous message John 3:18 tells you that you are condemned already and you did not have to do anything to be condemned. All you had to do was to be born into the world with a natural birth and you were already condemned. People don't get to choose whether they go to hell or heaven. If a person does not choose to be born again they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
But no one has to go there as they can choose to go to heaven instead.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 6:29 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by GDR, posted 09-26-2019 2:50 AM ICANT has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 94 (863444)
09-26-2019 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
09-25-2019 6:29 PM


Re: Christian
However it [being born againj]isn't something that you can pin down to a particular time and place, and it doesn't require the acceptance of a new doctrine at all.

I think isome of us were born again but didn't know what it was so we don't think of it as pinned to a particular time and place. We just notice that we're very different from what we were before. I had a few eparate rather dramatic supernatural experiences during the period when I was reading my way to Christ but there was a time when I looked at myself and saw that I actually had a faith I had't had before and didn't know exactly when the change had occurred. But many Christians have a very definite experience in mind they definitely can pin down to time and place, and just as ICANT does, commemorate it as having its own birthday.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 6:29 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 23 of 94 (863452)
09-26-2019 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
09-26-2019 12:25 AM


Re: Christian
ICANT writes:

You are not describing someone being born again.

You are describing a person that decides to serve the Lord and sets out on a journey of doing good deeds in order to gain favor with God. Then after that journey has lasted a long time the person has convinced himself/herself that they have arrived and deserve to be in heaven and is now saved.

Not at all. That is one of the problems with your type of fundamentalism. You think the whole point of the thing is to get to heaven. In the first place the idea of heading off to some place called heaven is not from the Bible. It is Greek mythology and primarily from Plato. The Bible actually talks about the recreation of all things. The Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew or the Kingdom of God in the other Gospels is about having an earthly kingdom without geographic boundaries that is made up of those who respond to that small voice of God and work to spread God's love and care into His creation.

Secondly when you make the point of Christianity to get a reward in the next life you are preaching a message that is 180 degrees from what Jesus taught. It takes the message Jesus' message of serving others into a message of loving the self.

The point about being born again is that it is about having a heart that learns to love sacrificially, not because there is a benefit from doing so in either this life or the next, but simply because you love that which is good and follow through with that love. Read the Bible and start with the sermon on the mount or Matthew 25. The whole point about being saved is not just to get a benefit in the next life, but it is about being saved so that we can serve God by being good stewards of His creation.

ICANT writes:

That is getting the cart before the horse. You have to be born again before you can do one good deed that God even sees.

That is so completely unscriptural. Again, read the Bible for what it actually says. In this case start with the "Good Samaritan", or again the sheep and the goats. There is nothing in there about what doctrine they accepted but simply about where there hearts were.

ICANT writes:

If a person does not choose to be born again they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

This again is more about Greek mythology than anything else. Your type of faith turns doctrinal belief into the idea of salvation by works. It represents a modern form of phariseeism.

Remember Jesus said that all of the commandments hang on the love of God and neighbour and Paul tells us that ultimately they amount to the same thing. You might also read my signature.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 09-26-2019 12:25 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2019 1:45 AM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 24 of 94 (863463)
09-26-2019 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by GDR
09-26-2019 12:19 AM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

Here are a couple of thoughts on that. Essentially you are saying that you believe that God exists but that the god that you believe in isn't involved in the world that we live in.

No and you cannot find anywhere I have said that is what I believe; but of course you can find that God in Genesis 1.

GDR writes:

As far as evidence goes there is evidence all around us. Our whole body is made up of mindless particles and yet we have consciousness. We can appreciate beauty. We have a sense of morality. We are able to love, even sacrificially. That is evidence of something, and yes we can only come to subjective conclusions that form our beliefs, but it is evidence.

But it is not evidence of anything supernatural.

GDR writes:

If we feel led to go to the aid of a homeless individual is that because we have listened to that still small voice? if it is, then is that supernatural? Does that still small voice even exist or has it simply evolved out of mindlessness?

No one knows. The best evidence is that it is a simple product of being alive. There is no evidence of anything supernatural there.

GDR writes:

As a Christian don't you think that you can look at Jesus to give you an understanding of God?

Absolutely not. The story of Jesus can give us an understanding of what it means to be a human.

GDR writes:

I'm not questioning that, but I again ask what as a Christian do you believe that a secular humanist couldn't also believe in?

I believe there is a GOD and that there is life after death and I will be judged based on how I have lived my life.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 09-26-2019 12:19 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2019 11:09 AM jar has responded
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 09-28-2019 6:50 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 94 (863475)
09-26-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
09-26-2019 7:47 AM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

As a Christian don't you think that you can look at Jesus to give you an understanding of God?

I do. jar seems more Jewish than Christian, though he insists he belongs to a club.
jar writes:

The story of Jesus can give us an understanding of what it means to be a human.

How? It looks more like a charge. And I might ask: A charge from Whom? This whole idea of personal responsibility and doing your best came from Judaism.

jar writes:

I believe there is a GOD and that there is life after death and I will be judged based on how I have lived my life.

Yup. Very Jewish. Not that this is wrong, mind you. Christians need Judaism to keep their fantasies in check.

The whole idea of throwing God away is debatable, however. You can't throw reality away.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 7:47 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 11:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 26 of 94 (863476)
09-26-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2019 11:09 AM


Re: what jar has said.
Phat writes:

I do. jar seems more Jewish than Christian, though he insists he belongs to a club.

Jesus was a Jew not a Christian Phat.

Phat writes:

jar writes:

The story of Jesus can give us an understanding of what it means to be a human.

How? It looks more like a charge. And I might ask: A charge from Whom? This whole idea of personal responsibility and doing your best came from Judaism.

Really? Did Jesus not tell us that we should love our brother as ourselves; that we will be judged based one how we treat the least of these or brothers?

Have you ever actually read the Bible Phat? Jesus taught stories teaching humans how to behave. He showed compassion and did what was needed by the particular individual or situation. Jesus set an example of what it means to be a human.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2019 11:09 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2019 11:58 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17395
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 27 of 94 (863477)
09-26-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ICANT
09-25-2019 10:52 PM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
ICANT writes:

What is the difference in that and believing there is evidence where there is none, only assumptions.


Assumptions are based on evidence.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ICANT, posted 09-25-2019 10:52 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 09-27-2019 2:51 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 28 of 94 (863480)
09-26-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
09-26-2019 11:20 AM


Canon Fodder
So if they were forming a canon to revise todays NKJV,NIV, and ESV versions of the Bible, would you suggest that they throw away the Gospel of John, or would you let it stay as part of the readings?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 11:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 94 (863481)
09-26-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-25-2019 10:02 PM


Re: what jar has said.
jar writes:

...what I am saying is that so far no one has ever presented any way to actually identify or test to show something is supernatural. I believe GOD exists but understand that is simply a belief with no supporting evidence. Nor do I see any way anyone alive could ever even produce such evidence.

The point is that many believe that the supernatural is a part of reality, despite no (Objective) evidence. Do you find the idea of a supernatural God laughable? Is your belief formed soley through evidence? What specifically about the God that is marketed by today's apologists do you find objectionable?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-25-2019 10:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:22 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31455
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 30 of 94 (863484)
09-26-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2019 11:58 AM


Re: Canon Fodder
HUH?

Who is revising a Canon?

Why would they eliminate it?

What is needed is to help Christians learn the basics of Christian History. John is not one of the Synoptic Gospels for a reason.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2019 11:58 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2019 12:14 PM jar has not yet responded

  
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