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Author Topic:   Common origin of life as proof of evolution
John Sullivan
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Posts: 2
Joined: 10-06-2019


Message 1 of 27 (864555)
10-12-2019 7:48 PM


This is my first post here so excuse me if I'm in the wrong place or proposing a topic that's already been beaten to death by others.

All (or most) living things share the same genetic apparatus & codes, such as RNA, DNA, chromosomes, ribosomes, amino acids, genetic enzymes, etc. Examples of slightly different genetic codes exist but there are a number of possible explanations for their existence, none of which invoke the agency of the supernatural.

All (or most) living things share the same metabolic systems, with some explanable variations. For example, organisms exist with 'reverse Krebs cycles' as compared to most creatures have 'forward' Krebs cycles.

The natural origin of life not only cannot be dismissed, it may have likely happened several times, with some lines dying out while others served to exchange genetic information with the one(s) that did survive before dying out. Evolution via natural selection has functioned from the earliest times.

My thesis is as follows: the common nature of these aspects of life on a molecular level is very strong evidence that they only originated once & evolved as life did. We do not see the existence of entirely dissimilar genetic or metabolic systems that would illustrate entirely separate origins.

Let me leave my argument here & see where it goes.

Jack

Edited by John Sullivan, : Revise grammar


Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 27 (864557)
10-12-2019 8:53 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Common origin of life as proof of evolution thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Pressie
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Posts: 2081
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 3 of 27 (864573)
10-13-2019 4:32 AM


Evidence, not proof.
In science we don't do "proof". Proof is for alcohol and maths.

In science we do evidence.


  
AZPaul3
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From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 4 of 27 (864577)
10-13-2019 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John Sullivan
10-12-2019 7:48 PM


the common nature of these aspects of life on a molecular level is very strong evidence that they only originated once

Probably. A cookie cutter god using the same wiring scheme for her various creations fits this molecular system quite well.

One might expect that if a natural origin were all there was then, on a rock this size, the molecular processes might have produced several different schemes for an initial replicant and thus different molecular schemes in the evolved products.

Welcome to EvC, Jack. Glad to have you.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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jar
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Message 5 of 27 (864580)
10-13-2019 8:51 AM


JohnS writes:

... the common nature of these aspects of life on a molecular level is very strong evidence that they only originated once

Welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell.

Kinda, sorta, maybe.

There is another equally likely possibility is that what we see today is the surviving, more successful original line. Just as the more successful at reproducing in any given environment tends to dominate that environment it's possible that in the beginning several entirely different formats originated, but the one we see today was simply the most adaptable within the original environment and within the evolving environment.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 6 of 27 (864586)
10-13-2019 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John Sullivan
10-12-2019 7:48 PM


Hello John Sullivan,

My thesis is as follows: the common nature of these aspects of life on a molecular level is very strong evidence that they only originated once & evolved as life did. We do not see the existence of entirely dissimilar genetic or metabolic systems that would illustrate entirely separate origins.

Do a search on "RNA World" ... it appears the best explanation to date is that RNA evolved chemically and out-competed other systems for self-replicating molecules, but then DNA evolved chemically and took over.

Some old threads of mine on this topic are Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I) and Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II) -- they are both old and there has likely been much discovered since.

... as proof of ...

Do you prove theories in chemistry? I know it works in math, but generally in science it seems we develop theories as the best known explanations rather than prove them.

Can we ever prove that life evolved chemically from molecules or are we limited to developing the best explanation based on the evidence we know and the known behavior of chemicals?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 522
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 7 of 27 (864634)
10-13-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by John Sullivan
10-12-2019 7:48 PM


Natural processes are uniformitarian?
This logical “proof” also explains why all mountains, which we know result from natural processes, are essentially identical chemically. (What? What do you mean their not?) Well then, it does explain why all the planets in the solar system, which we again know to result from natural and well understood natural processes, are essentially chemically identical. (What? You’re telling me that the planets also have a lot of chemical diversity?) Wow, it seems that natural processes produce a great deal of chemical diversity. But that doesn’t apply to life forms. Apparently, the earliest life forms included one type that was somewhat more survivable than all the other forms, and that life form then scattered all over the 200,000,000 square miles of early ocean and ate all the other life forms leaving no trace of their existence.

The only time we see a high level of uniformity in the chemical and morphological makeup of things is when those things are man (intelligent) made.


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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(1)
Message 8 of 27 (864648)
10-14-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AnswersInGenitals
10-13-2019 8:21 PM


Re: Natural processes are uniformitarian?
The only time we see a high level of uniformity in the chemical and morphological makeup of things is when those things are man (intelligent) made.

Gosh I didn't know salt crystals were intelligently made ....

I always thought they were self organizing molecular structures that built themselves according to chemical processes.

OMG -- LOOK at all these signs of intelligence!!!

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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1.61803
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From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 9 of 27 (864667)
10-14-2019 1:28 PM


It seems to me that the natural laws that exist in our universe dictates how the chemistry will work. IOW life is possibly an emergent property of biochemistry.
There are some rather interesting takes on how creatures can extract energy and live. Such as zooxanthellae in corals, tube worms living near geothermal energy etc..
It seems to suggest that living on this particular planet with this particular gravity and in the goldilocks zone from a star is not the only way life can emerge and eventually evolve.
Life it seems will find a way. I heard that in a movie somewhere.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 522
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 27 (864668)
10-14-2019 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
10-14-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Natural processes are uniformitarian?
..,.according to chemical processes.

And just who do you think determined those chemical processes?

In the words of the great Ishnar Kalibane: “True enlightenment resides in the process, not the substance.”
____________________________________________

“Seek not to counter those words said in jest, else ye are doomed to eternal impotentcy.”


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4731
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 11 of 27 (864670)
10-14-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by AnswersInGenitals
10-14-2019 1:29 PM


Re: Natural processes are uniformitarian?
Does there have to be a who to determine chemical processes?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 12 of 27 (864671)
10-14-2019 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by AnswersInGenitals
10-14-2019 1:29 PM


Re: Natural processes are uniformitarian?
..,.according to chemical processes.

And just who do you think determined those chemical processes?

Deist god/s are one possibility, but not the only one.

... “True enlightenment resides in the process, not the substance.”

Leaping to concussions gives you headaches rather than answers.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-14-2019 1:29 PM AnswersInGenitals has responded

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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2925
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 13 of 27 (864672)
10-14-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
10-14-2019 1:59 PM


Re: Natural processes are uniformitarian?
"Man who stands on toilet is high on pot"

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 522
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 14 of 27 (864673)
10-14-2019 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
10-14-2019 1:59 PM


Re: Natural processes are uniformitarian?
Deist god/s are one possibility, but not the only one.

Do not underestimate the powers of dentist gods for they alone know the path to the tooth.
____________________________________________

“That which is cannot be otherwise, until it is (otherwise)” Ushnar Kalibane in his The Shnogwhriths” canto 3, verse 7.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.


This message is a reply to:
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WookieeB
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 15 of 27 (865250)
10-22-2019 3:50 PM


John Sullivan writes:

Examples of slightly different genetic codes exist but there are a number of possible explanations for their existence, none of which invoke the agency of the supernatural.

Could you enlighten us on what those possible explanations are?


  
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