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Author Topic:   Common origin of life as proof of evolution
AlexCaledin
Member
Posts: 62
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 16 of 27 (865308)
10-23-2019 3:51 AM


The false presupposition is, Actuality is generated by chemical and mechanical processes. All the fuss about evolution is based on that old mistake. According to the logics of the modern quantum physics, Actuality is generated by observation, physical and chemical laws being the objective Math to correlate/organize the actual observed events - analogous to chessboard organizing the chess game, as Feynman said. So, from the Theistic viewpoint, evolution has never actually happened but was pre-calculated in God's great computer, in the Days of Creation.

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Taq
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Posts: 8159
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 17 of 27 (865444)
10-25-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AlexCaledin
10-23-2019 3:51 AM


AlexCaledin writes:

So, from the Theistic viewpoint, evolution has never actually happened but was pre-calculated in God's great computer, in the Days of Creation.

That poses some serious theological problems. For instance, this means it was God's plan for young children to get mutations that cause lethal cancers, such as leukemia. It is God's plan that bacteria evolve antibiotic resistance and cause painful and lethal infections that we can't stop.


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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 18 of 27 (865445)
10-25-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
10-25-2019 12:02 PM


The Abrahamic god is evil
Yeah a real sick MFer.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 27 (865451)
10-25-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
10-25-2019 12:02 PM


My 2 cents
There is a difference between causing something to happen and allowing nature to run its course. Hypothetically, if God prevented humans from experiencing any bump or bruise, sickness or sin, we would be weaker because of it. Critics will then say that there is no difference between an observer God (hands-off) and no God. So here we are. Pick your belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by vimesey, posted 10-25-2019 12:30 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 23 by Taq, posted 10-25-2019 12:31 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2019 1:46 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 27 (865452)
10-25-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Theodoric
10-25-2019 12:04 PM


Re: The Abrahamic god is evil
You have always had an issue with the hypothetical God. Perhaps getting stirred up was your destiny.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Theodoric, posted 10-25-2019 12:04 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 10-25-2019 12:29 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6799
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 21 of 27 (865455)
10-25-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2019 12:26 PM


Re: The Abrahamic god is evil
Just reading what it says in the abrahamic holy books. Have you read them?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2019 12:26 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
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Posts: 1010
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(4)
Message 22 of 27 (865456)
10-25-2019 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2019 12:24 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Come on, tackle it face on. We're not talking bumps and bruises - we're talking agonising, excruciatingly painful and incurable conditions, forcing the victims into a revolting and unthinkable pit of hellish existence. Bumps and bruises is no way to refer to it.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2019 12:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 8159
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 23 of 27 (865457)
10-25-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2019 12:24 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Thugpreacha writes:

There is a difference between causing something to happen and allowing nature to run its course.

That is yet another level of morality. I am standing on a sidewalk, and I see two young children playing in their front yard. They throw a ball and it rolls onto the street next to me. They begin running right at me and towards the ball sitting on the street, and at the same time I see a car barreling down the street right at the ball. The car will have no time to stop if the kids run out into the road. What do I do? Do I stop the children from running onto the road just by reaching out and grabbing them, or do I let "nature run its course"? What is the moral thing to do? Do I do nothing and let them get hit by a car because humans need to experience some bumps and bruises?


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7123
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 24 of 27 (865462)
10-25-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2019 12:24 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Phat writes:

Hypothetically, if God prevented humans from experiencing any bump or bruise, sickness or sin, we would be weaker because of it.

Utter cr@p, that was his original idea. And it's his ultimate idea.

How come it was fine for the Garden of Eden and fine for heaven, but somehow in the only place that actually exists it's not?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2019 12:24 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13154
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 27 (865478)
10-25-2019 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by vimesey
10-25-2019 12:30 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Hell was never created for people. Humans only end up in Hell by refusing to accept God through Christ. There would be no good reason not to accept God...unless in so doing you lose your precious freethought independence.

I try and imagine what an atheist would think, however. To them, the God whom I imagine exists is as unrealistic as these silly RPG game characters that I see younger people playing. Everyone wants to hold on to our imagination and freethought. In addition, I am told that the God of my imagination is fantasy and that the reality we all share is the only reality there is. I find comfort in rejecting belief in Hell. Apart from all that, I just realized that this is a science forum so perhaps Im not allowed to imagine anything.

Im getting tired, though. I have to go to a cardiac specialist on Monday. My EKG reading was abnormal and has an additional tick and a jump in it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by vimesey, posted 10-25-2019 12:30 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by vimesey, posted 10-26-2019 3:16 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 10-28-2019 6:37 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1010
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 26 of 27 (865499)
10-26-2019 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2019 4:06 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Perhaps I should have been clearer.

I'm not talking about the afterlife version of hell - I'm talking about the living hell of pain, disability and despair which incurable conditions force on living human beings.

You were saying:

if God prevented humans from experiencing any bump or bruise, sickness or sin, we would be weaker because of it. 

I was saying you are not being honest enough. You should be saying:

if God prevented humans from experiencing any excruciatingly painful, lifelong incurable condition from which there is no escape and for which there is no cure, or sin, we would be weaker because of it. 

You'd still be making your point, but at least you'd be being more honest about it.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2019 4:06 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8159
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 27 of 27 (865651)
10-28-2019 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2019 4:06 PM


Re: My 2 cents
Thugpreacha writes:

Hell was never created for people. Humans only end up in Hell by refusing to accept God through Christ.

It could be that humans who refuse to accept abiogenesis and evolution are also thrown in Hell. Maybe you should accept these ideas just in case, right?

Pascal's Wager isn't that great of an argument.

There would be no good reason not to accept God...unless in so doing you lose your precious freethought independence.

Was Thomas' freewill taken away when Jesus let him touch the wounds on his hands and side? If not, I don't see the harm in asking for the same type of evidence.

I am told that the God of my imagination is fantasy and that the reality we all share is the only reality there is.

For all I know, what you claim may be true. However, there's no evidence that it is. I need evidence in order to be convinced.

I have to go to a cardiac specialist on Monday. My EKG reading was abnormal and has an additional tick and a jump in it.

Best wishes, and I hope things turn out well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2019 4:06 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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