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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 14 of 853 (865076)
10-20-2019 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
10-20-2019 3:37 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
PaulK writes:

His reading relies on the phrase meaning a death sentence rather than an execution.

It is even stupider.

Adam & Eve were already sentenced to death; unless they ate from the Tree of Life. Eating from the Tree of Knowledge was totally irrelevant when it came to whether Adam & Eve would die. It was why God kicked them out of the garden because he feared they would become even more like God and live forever.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 19 of 853 (865082)
10-20-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
10-20-2019 3:52 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Phat writes:

If so, it was a valid fear. God feared that His own pet project of free-willed beings would be sabotaged. Just as some of us now fear that if people simply throw God away and go with their own intuition, they will also fail. Perhaps God created satan to give Him fear...sort of like a scary movie. God may have been bored.

There you go making stuff up that is simply not in the story; being a classic apologist.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 10-20-2019 4:06 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 22 of 853 (865086)
10-20-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
10-20-2019 4:06 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Phat writes:

After all, even you edited it enough to bring in Mark Twain and Mencius.

That is simply not true yet again and again and again Phat.

It is just another example of you trying to palm the pea, misdirect attention, fool the rubes. And it fails.

I do not ever put Mencius or Mark Twain into what is written in the Bible.

I do not misrepresent what is actually written in the Bible.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 10-20-2019 4:42 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 32 of 853 (865109)
10-20-2019 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
10-20-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Phat writes:

No, but you use them to present the case for your argument concerning what Christianity and Christian philosophy is and should be about.

No Phat, once again that is simply untrue.

I use the Bible to support what Christianity should be all about, particularly what Jesus is said that his followers should do.

I use Mencius and the Eight Fold Path and Middle Way and Mark Twain to show that wisdom can be found nearly universally.

Phat writes:

I happen to reject the idea that God could lie. I don't care what the book can be shown to say.

But again Phat, it is not what the book can be shown to say, it is what the book actually says. It's not anything I say Phat, you object to what the Bible actually says.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 10-27-2019 4:08 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 34 of 853 (865547)
10-27-2019 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
10-27-2019 4:08 AM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Yes Phat and I understand and have repeatedly said that the Bible is filled with contradictions, errors, fantasy as well as history, laws and opinions.

What I don't do is only take those parts that support my position out of context but instead accept that what is written is actually what the authors wrote.

Phat quotemines writes:

Malachi 3:6: “For I am the Lord, I do not change.”

I have no doubt that the author of that passage might have believed it was true; yet that does not change the FACT that the authors of Genesis 1 and the authors of Genesis 2&3 described two entirely different and mutually incompatibly Gods.

Phat quotemines writes:

Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”

1 Samuel 15:29: “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent.”

Psalm 92:15: “To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.”

Romans 3:4: “Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.”

Titus 1:2: “In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.”

Hebrews 6:18: “It is impossible for God to lie.”

Again, I have no doubt that the authors of those passages believed they were true or at least wanted to market them as true but it does not change the FACT that in the Genesis 2&3 fable the author does have the God character not telling the truth and the serpent telling the truth.

The point is, what is actually written is what is actually written and trying to pretend that one part cancels out or revises some other part is just plain not being honest.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 10-27-2019 12:52 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 42 of 853 (865580)
10-27-2019 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
10-27-2019 12:52 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Phat writes:

You are being ********* in selling the point that "the Bible says what it actually says" on the one hand, and then "the author of this passage believed it was true" in another context.

That is simply silly Phat, really really silly. Think before you write. There is absolutely no issue between those two statements.

Phat writes:

The passages which you emphasize in your posts represent what YOU take from the Bible. You cant simply declare that it is not what you say but what is actually written and remain honest in criticizing me for quote-mining.

Of course I can Phat. You still miss the whole point.

The apologists claim the Bible is "a whole" and that one part interprets another part. I simply point out that the evidence shows that the Bible is NOT "a whole" but rather an anthology of anthologies. Each section represents the beliefs or message of the authors at the time they wrote the material.

Phat writes:

And to dismiss the apologists as a bunch of carny barkers while presenting YOUR choice passages as an example of what a Christian *should* believe needs to be exposed.

But it's a good thing that I don't do that then. I don't try to tell anyone what they should believe rather I simply present the actual evidence of what was written.

Personally I have no reason to think the authors did not believe what they wrote was true; even the author of the Gospel of John most likely believed what he was writing was true.

Phat writes:

GOD may well be far more complex and dynamic than any human can imagine Him as, but it is this that should be emphasized, rather than emphasizing a god character who lies, is uncertain, learns on the job, and is portrayed by some as a human teacher.

Yet once again Phat, the Bible actually says what it says. How many times have I pointed out the differences between the God of Genesis 1 and the much older God of Genesis 2&3.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 10-27-2019 12:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 3:04 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 44 of 853 (865615)
10-28-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
10-28-2019 3:04 AM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Phat writes:

The point is that these writers actually met God in some way or fashion. They were not simply imagining him, as you might a mugwump.

But again Phat, what does the evidence show? If each of the writers did meet God and did describe the God they met then the author of Genesis 1 met an entirely different God then the author of Genesis 2&3 or the author of Exodus. Either all of the authors wrote about what the imagined God to be or they all met different Gods or God is simply Coyote who can be a shape shifter and jokester.


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 Message 43 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 3:04 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 2:06 PM jar has responded
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 2:11 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 48 of 853 (865635)
10-28-2019 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
10-28-2019 2:06 PM


Re: The Evolution Of The God Character
Phat writes:

Can you make a valid argument that people invent various "Jesus" Characters just as they invented "god characters" in the OT?

Yes, of course people invent their own Jesus character. You are a great example.

We all need to invent what we believe since there is absolutely no actual evidence to support our beliefs.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 49 of 853 (865636)
10-28-2019 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
10-28-2019 2:11 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Phat writes:

Different gods serve different purposes to the devotees who describe them.

Correct. Different gods serve different purposes to the devotees who describe them.


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 Message 46 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 2:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 3:39 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 52 of 853 (865641)
10-28-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
10-28-2019 3:39 PM


memory, story telling and reality.
Phat writes:

Would you argue that many Biblical authors had world view changing moments that led to their writings? Or would you say they simply made it up.

Again Phat, what does the evidence show?

First we have absolutely no idea who wrote any of the Old Testament and we only have a very few New Testament writings than can be said to likely have a known author.

We do not know who the actual author of any of the Gospels might be but we do know that nothing in Luke is a first hand account.

If we look at the portions common to more than one book we see two patterns, either direct quotes that likely came from so other unknown source or particularly in the stories in Luke and the other Gospels classic embellishment. The two examples you and I have discussed many times and in depth are the Great Commission and Paul's highway experience. In only one instance of the latter is there a hint of attribution and that is the tale supposedly told by Saul himself which is really pretty much mundane and without any strong details.

There is a notable lack of "world view changing moments" that are first person accounts and changes that are written are more evolutionary than revolutionary. Even Paul's writings show an evolving theology.

As one by one the very most basic cornerstones of the early theology failed to match reality the theology itself changed and the Apologist began their revision of the initial theology to try to make it fit reality. The classic example is the END not coming within the time predicted by Jesus thus the Apologist had to redefine the meaning of what was really pretty clear to claim that what Jesus was reported to have said really didn't mean what Jesus was reported to have said.

The evidence for such revisionism is pretty ubiquitous; when God says that if you eat the fruit you will die God didn't mean really really dead just spiritually dead.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 55 of 853 (865697)
10-29-2019 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
10-29-2019 3:02 PM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
Phat writes:

Turek claims that atheists simply do not want to believe and many wouldn't even if presented with irrefutable evidence.

And that is sufficient evidence to simply throw him and his worthless opinions away.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:32 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 59 of 853 (865713)
10-29-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
10-29-2019 3:32 PM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
Phat writes:

You want to throw anything away that challenges your comfort zone.

Not at all Phat but I do throw away those who make absolutely stupid absurd claims.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 4:17 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 61 of 853 (865723)
10-29-2019 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
10-29-2019 4:17 PM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
quote:
So I have two questions for atheists: 1)What is the source of this immaterial reality known as reason that we are all presupposing, utilizing in our discussions, and accusing one other of violating on occasion?; and 2) If there is no God and we are nothing but chemicals, why should we trust anything we think, including the thought that there is no God?

He asks two utterly stupid questions. Throw him away.

I mean, come on Phat. The man is just another huckster. We have answered those two utterly stupid questions and even you will be able to provide the answers.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 64 of 853 (865729)
10-29-2019 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
10-29-2019 6:47 PM


Re: The Evolution Of The God Character
You do know that Westboro Baptist Church doesn't even exist; that it is all a spoof.

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jar
Member
Posts: 33416
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 66 of 853 (865732)
10-29-2019 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Theodoric
10-29-2019 7:02 PM


Re: The Evolution Of The God Character
Yup. you're right. It's impossible to tell the real one from the spoofs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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