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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 853 (865728)
10-29-2019 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
10-28-2019 2:06 PM


Re: The Evolution Of The God Character
Can you make a valid argument that people invent various "Jesus" Characters just as they invented "god characters" in the OT? If so, I think we are closer to defining God through Jesus and to a lesser extent through the additional writings of Paul, Peter, and John.

Westboro Baptist Church.

Is anything in their poisonous interpretations akin to the Jesus you've come to know and love?

Its all a matter of interpretation. One man revels and delights in the idea that Jesus is going to come back with a sword, separate the tares from the wheat, and judge them for all eternity. Others seem to think he was sweet-natured and loved the world so much that he opted to immolate himself in the most brutal fashion as a testament to his love for humanity. Both are scriptural but does the heart not differ radically in interpretation of who Jesus was from person to person?

We all fashion for ourselves a god that differs from another's interpretation.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-28-2019 2:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 10-29-2019 6:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 192 of 853 (866328)
11-09-2019 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by GDR
11-09-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Faith and Works
Ringo's idea that it is only what we do that matters I think misses the point as well. I suggest that it is the motivation, or our heart, for the things that we do that matter. If we are doing a good thing that benefits others but at no cost to the self that is fine. However, it is having sufficient faith, regardless of our religious beliefs, to believe that doing something beneficial to others at some personal cost is what we are called as humans to do, and then living by that faith, that is of value to God.

Seems rather obvious (to me at least) what the scriptures mean when they juxtapose faith and works. They are meant to coexist just as time and space, day and night are meaningless without the other.

The scriptures are clear that faith, alone, is what brings salvation. Why? Because somebody running around doing good works but is self-serving is only doing those good deeds with the expectation of something in return -- we'll call it everlasting life for the purpose of this discussion.

On the other hand, faith without works is dead. Sitting there and saying "I believe in Jesus" without living it out or lifting a finger for your fellow man has no teeth... This too demonstrates selfishness instead of selflessness.

"Working out one's salvation" is acknowledgement that no good deed or any amount of good deeds can earn eternal life. But somebody who does nothing to act out in that faith through works is dead inside.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by GDR, posted 11-09-2019 11:16 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 11-11-2019 2:50 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 518 of 853 (868649)
12-15-2019 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by Phat
12-15-2019 7:08 AM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Because I'm wise enough to know that God does not lie.

People pretending to be speaking on God's behalf certainly can lie and have lied -- lest you believe the teachings of Mohammed actually come from the non-lying mind of Allah. That's the problem, Phat. Lots and lots of people have lied or at least were horribly deluded claiming that God speaks to them. How can you certify that anything in the bible, written by many different authors, were not corrupted by the vagaries of men?

I'm also wise enough to know that God is nowhere near as insecure as jar portrays the character as being.

The bible itself depicts God with human insecurities like jealousy... anger... and prone to what can only be described as temper tantrums.

Granted, jar is simply reinforcing his position that the book was written by and through humans.

And rightfully so because it was, objectively. We can argue whether or not it was divinely inspired but what isn't really contestable was that it was physically penned by man.

I need people who also believe that God speaks to them rather than a bunch of non-believers who are nearly universally certain that God does not speak at all.
Furthermore, I turn to prayer. I am quite certain I will get better answers there than I would here or from any apologists either.

You'll get the answers that you want to hear if you shove aside disconfirming evidence. Staunch atheism is just as objectionable to me as staunch faith because either way it relies on a measure of just that -- faith. I cannot know that God doesn't exist. I just don't have any good reasons to assume he does.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Phat, posted 12-15-2019 7:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Faith, posted 12-15-2019 11:04 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 521 of 853 (868658)
12-16-2019 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Faith
12-15-2019 11:04 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
No that is NOT how the Bible "depicts" God at all, you are reading your own views into those words.

"The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies." -- Nahum 1:2


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Faith, posted 12-15-2019 11:04 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 722 of 853 (872298)
02-24-2020 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Phat
02-24-2020 4:30 PM


Re: Reparations Pro & Con
Just because you benefited from that history and I was harmed by that history, you and your brethren may owe reparations to me and my brethren, even if you guys aren’t actively oppressing us guys anymore.

Or maybe you do. I don’t want to say that you definitely do owe us reparations. But I don’t want to say that you definitely don’t, either. I just want to say that the issue is a lot more complicated than we were first making it out to be.

Yeah, its a whole lot more complicated that. For one thing, the Forty Acres and a Mule never got paid out like it was promised to. Thomas Jefferson, who in principle opposed slavery but at the same time owned slaves explained the precarious predicament of abolition in many of his writings. He was quite aware that he was hypocrite and I think it deeply tormented him. Abraham Lincoln picked up the mantle but didn't get a chance to deliver since he was assassinated on account of it.

The reality is that the freed slaves should have immediately been compensated appropriately -- but they never really were. An injustice to add insult to injury on top of the previous injustice. Compensation ought to be reserved for the people who actually suffered the injustice. We are now so many generations past that point that it has become so diluted. What does it mean now? All white people in America were not the descendants of slave owners, nor are all black people living in America today the product of slavery. And what of the large mulatto population -- does their check cancel out?

And how much money are we talking? No amount of money can mend this and no amount of money can repair the past. Seems to me that nobody will be satisfied. Give an individual $50,000 and it will immediately be met with "Is that my value to you?" Give a million dollars and will be met with where is the 4 million more you owe me? Who foots the bill? Do only Anglo's pay in a special tax? How do you divvy out? 1 drop rule? Shouldn't Brazil pay? Portugal? Spain? England? The Netherlands? Saudi Arabians? Hell, it was African tribes capturing other African tribes and selling them to the highest bidder. Should they pay? How do you differentiate between ancient tribes?

And what exactly is resolved through it? Oh, were all square with the House again? Life is just gonna be peaches and cream from here on out... Get real.

This argument won't end with Reparations and nothing of substance will be resolved. Nothing.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Phat, posted 02-24-2020 4:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 726 of 853 (872339)
02-25-2020 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by Phat
02-25-2020 2:50 PM


Convincing who at this point?
I finally arrived at my current argument. God exists, this I believe and claim to know...subjectively by necessity. Were it objectifiable, belief would not enter the equation for anyone. Mind you, I have experienced some pretty amazing things that fed my confirmation bias. I refused to sit in the outer courts with jar and freely make arguments which would effectively throw away my need for God. Which brings us to my current whining. I fight very hard to prove to everyone that I don't owe anybody anything. The weakness in my argument is that I at the same time feel that God owes me a relationship and a blank check. It is basically what my Dad would have given me, except that the check would not be blank and would involve some promises on my part.

Have you ever asked yourself why you spend so much time here and, presumably elsewhere, defending your own beliefs? I mean, they're your beliefs. It shouldn't matter to anyone else why you arrived at your conclusions and you shouldn't feel a need to defend it.

But you come here day in and day out rehashing the same arguments, jousting endlessly with the likes of Tangle or Jar or Ringo or whoever else and nothing is resolved. No minds changed. No hearts coming to Jesus on a bent and repentant knee.

Have you had the honest conversation with yourself about who you are trying to convince at this point? Are you trying to convince them to believe in God or are you trying to convince yourself why should still be believing in this?

I say none of this as disrespect. This is an honest question and one that I had wished that I asked myself when I was a professing Christian. I spent years proselytizing to my sister to save her soul... now I'm the seed that fell along the path that was choked out and she, ironically, is trying to bring me back to the faith.

You have preached the word of God here for like a decade.... how many converts have you had? How many on EvC or somewhere in your private life have you guided to the Lord? Faith, an infinitely worse example.... How many souls has she saved with her fire, her brimstone, her invective, her calloused and abrasive demeanor? Better question: how many souls has she repelled because of the above attributes? If she's a representative of what the good Lord is all about then why would anybody take it seriously?

You, as a Christian, are charged with preaching the gospel to the world.... EvC is a tiny microcosm of that world. But I think your talents and sincerity would probably be better utilized elsewhere, cuz you're just spinning your wheels endlessly here. Maybe go down to the local soup kitchen and offer to spend 2 or 3 hours serving your flock as Jesus did with loaves and fish... and then minister to them... not in an obnoxious or pretentious way. Just a simple summation of why you are there, why you care about these people, and why you have a hope that supersedes human understanding. That's what genuine Christianity teaches! How quickly we forgot!

At the heart of it all, this is a debate forum. And we all are tempted to persuade others. But we, Christians especially, should carefully examine the motives to ensure that it is not coming from a place of ego and coming from a genuine desire to edify or wrestle with ideas... and in the case of the Christian, to see souls reaching salvation, not by your works but by you living out your faith Christ Jesus, Amen.

Maybe chew on that notion a little and wrestle with the angel over it and see what comes out of it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by Phat, posted 02-25-2020 2:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 2:35 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 730 of 853 (872346)
02-26-2020 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 727 by Tangle
02-26-2020 2:35 AM


Re: Convincing who at this point?
I don't think Phat is trying to convert or convince anyone here, he's trying to convince himself of something. His difficulty seems to be in reconciling his hallucination/delusion/revelation of years ago with his personal circumstances and his inability/unwillingness to actually follow the messages in his belief system because it would make things worse for him.

I had an experience myself during my conversion years. Began my life as an Agnostic, was in a bad period of my life and was searching for deeper meaning. It was such a profound experience for me that I recorded it in a book that I wrote years ago but never published:

quote:
I had opened myself increasingly to the possibility of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent presence. I wasn’t entirely sold on the notion just yet, but I was allowing the possibility to flourish instead of stifling it as I had done for so many years. I began to listen to sermons on the radio and started to read the Bible with understanding. I was able to discern that which I could not recognize before. The Word became a catalyst to a consuming flame. I began to pray to God, that if He truly was there, that He would reveal Himself to me. And a few weeks after the walls were let down, it happened.

I was on a routine patrol getting ready to secure a building on the base. For the life of me, I cannot recall what the sermon was about or what exactly it was that effected me so greatly, nonetheless, like a clarion call, it came to me. Have you ever looked at something for so long that it becomes obscured to you? Have you ever looked at something for so long that you come to realize that it never truly made any sense to you to begin with? Suddenly and inexplicably, it dawns on you what it is. I was sitting in the patrol unit with my jaw to the floor. Incredible emotion swept through me like a shock wave. Emotion washed over me as I was enveloped by grace. I literally fell out of the vehicle, prostrate, in a semi-fetal position. Tears began to well up in my eyes, so heavy and full of burden. There on the ground, in an unguarded moment, I wept bitterly to my Lord. Amid the sobs were guttural groans, interrupted by a feeble attempt to express the ineffable. I begged for intercession and pleaded forgiveness. In that once-in-a-lifetime moment, I understood that which had vexed me for so long. And because I asked, I received. That was the day that I met the Holy Spirit of Almighty God! After being so sick and tired, of being so sick and tired, I was saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.


Powerful stuff. Many years later, of course, I have had to wrestle with the notion of whether it was a genuine experience or one that I manufactured during a period in my life where I was very vulnerable and susceptible to fuckery.

Its not lost on me the profundity of an experience like that has on the psyche and, possibly worse, this being the only real experience like it to hang on to as some kind of semi-tangible "proof" of God's existence. And even then what assurance do I have that any of it was real? The emotion was real. The fact that I was actively looking was real. The experience was real in the sense that the events I described happened. But was the experience one that I wanted to have or was it one that was divinely appointed? So I know a little something about this reconciliation that you speak of regarding Phat's current state of affairs. I hope he reads this so that he knows that he is not alone. It is okay to question.

I have gone through many years since this time and while I had a go of it, I have ultimately come full circle back to being an Agnostic. What matters to me is the truth. Having this gentle, loving God watching over me is obviously a preferable thought than a short life that is ultimately cut short. But I refuse to believe in something for the sake of comfort. At this point in my life I have no compelling reason to believe in Christianity or any other religion. I still remain open to it -- I am not hostile towards it, but I'm not going to shy away from calling bullshit if I see it.

That is a truncated version of where I am currently.... which is always subject to change. The only true constant is change, after all. You are not the same person you were two years ago and you will not be the same person you are two years from now. We all evolve. Beliefs evolve over time.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 2:35 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 731 of 853 (872347)
02-26-2020 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 728 by Phat
02-26-2020 3:47 AM


Re: Convincing who at this point?
You are right for once. And what's worse is the realization that God's magic isn't working on my behalf. If ringo is right in that I am expected to follow God and deny myself fully...on my own power...and without God's help....I'm screwed.

Are you though? If being a Christian and believing in this wholesale makes you a better person, whether any of it is real or not, I am not opposed to it. My sister believes in it. She is clearly comforted by it. I am obviously sympathetic to it based on my own experiences. I know what it feels like and, truth be told, I sometimes miss it. But she is very young in her faith -- almost infantile and as Paul would put it, she's still on milk. She knows about some of the squishy and sentimental parts of the bible.

A part of me likes the fact that she has something to hold on to. If it makes her or makes you a better person, then so be it. As for me, I just want to know what the truth is -- the good, the bad and the ugly. Truth, even an inconvenient one, is preferable than a delusion. But I speak only for myself. I don't want to believe in anything for the comfort or convenience of it.

The problem becomes when a religion does not make people better and in fact makes them much worse. Often it makes them disgusting and filthy. There is something particularly odious about people who use religion to justify atrocities or greed. It is amazing that people can in one breath talk about the love of God while in the next moment saw a human's head off in the name of God... and genuinely believe that's what a supposed benevolent God wants. To instill terror and inflict incredible pain on another human being and to actually believe they are doing God's work.

Life is full of complications... religion is just an extension of how complex this world is and how our feeble minds are trying to process the flood of information -- the difficulty of parceling through to separate fact from fiction -- reality from delusion.

Whether you are on a walk with God or not, you are on a walk nevertheless... this journey will never end. You could live to be 1,000 years old and never come away feeling certain that we've definitely got it figured it out now. My best suggestion is just enjoy the walk.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by Phat, posted 02-26-2020 3:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 760 of 853 (872406)
02-26-2020 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Faith
02-26-2020 8:14 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
GDR, do you really not get that most "serving" that is done is done for personal benefit? To feel good about yourself, to feel superior to others, to get credit of one sort or another, some kind of reward from God or whatnot? That's the most common sin there is, and it's a form of spiritual sin. When Paul said it's not about works "lest any man should boast," that's what he meant. Boasting comes with doing good works, not with salvation.

If your spirit of servitude is coming from a selfish place then, absolutely. But I don't think that is what GDR was saying at all. Works are not a matter of salvation, that is very clear in the scriptures. But good works are evidence of salvation. Again, not self-serving or boastful works, but humble works where there is no expectation of return.

You know, soldiers in combat jump on a grenade instinctually to save their buddies.... I guarantee they aren't contemplating, "Gee, if I jump on this grenade I will be awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously." They just do it for their brethren. People do a lot of selfless acts, not for publicity.

The Reformation doctrine of "Total depravity" is another way of saying that. We CAN'T do good works, GDR, it isn't in us, we're fallen.

The bible would beg to differ.... one of many verses on the subject.

quote:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." -- James 2:14-17

Salvation is regeneration of the spirit we lost at the Fall by which we can eventually reclaim some of the ability to do good that we lost but the more we reclaim the more we will learn that it all comes from God anyway and not from us. But you'd have us somehow think we can have a good heart without that. That's self-deception to a monumental degree. Even after being saved we are subject to our wretched fallen nature, and one of our biggest sins is thinking we're good or are capable of doing good.

That is not what he is saying at all. No one can earn their way into heaven. No amount of good works will save you. All true. BUT to be born again of the spirit is to fulfill a desire to WORK OUT your salvation not WORK FOR your salvation. And working it out is with a heart of servitude, again, not for some personal gain but a genuine love. Are you suggesting that its impossible to do good things without an ulterior motive? Lets see what Jesus has to say on the subject:

quote:
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Faith without works is dead. I would be careful with your rationale. If your reason for not helping people is because it might be construed as self-serving, God is going to know your heart and your motives. So maybe its just that you are incapable of doing a good work without expecting something in return but Jesus very clearly wants you to work out that faith and he will examine every deed and every thought.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 2:00 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 766 of 853 (872425)
02-27-2020 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by Faith
02-27-2020 2:00 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
I said just about nothing you are imputing to me here.

I quoted you verbatim. You said that because of the Fall of Man humans are incapable of good works until they've been regenerated. I pointed out that salvation by grace through faith alone is that regenerative process... but you still seem to think that after this process that good works are still as "filthy rags." Good works CAN be used with ulterior motives, of course! But if your rationale for never doing anything on behalf of someone else is because it could be construed as boastful or self-serving, you are dead wrong about that. Over and over and over again the bible expects you, having now been filled with the Spirit under a new birth, to work out that salvation that was not earned but was freely given through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, as an expression of God's love for man. That is biblical through and through.

Good works can never equal salvation. No disagreement whatsoever. But faith alone helps no one. "Oh, I'll pray for you." Wow, awesome.... how about actually helping the person. Jesus said to do that.... his brother James also said to do that. So maybe you should listen to the King of Kings on the subject.

Have you clothed people who were cold? Have you fed people who were hungry? Did you visit those in prison? You are charged to do these things as evidence of your salvation.

quote:
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."


Does it say don't give to the needy at all? No, it says do give to the needy but don't make it a show and make it all about you.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 2:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:09 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 784 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 12:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 797 of 853 (872466)
02-27-2020 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by Phat
02-27-2020 10:09 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
She likely will say that the Fall is true Biblical Christianity.

Because it is biblically based. That much is evident. What I contend with is that she seems to be under the assumption that because of the Fall that mankind is absolutely perverse and literally incapable of doing anything good as a result, or if they do, they have some kind of nefarious or ulterior motive for doing it. Pure fiction and unscriptural.

jar argues that *we* most certainly can and do perform good works based on the charge rather than the impartation by the Holy Spirit. To me, that differs little from altruism and good works in and of themselves and divorced from religion.

The Parable about the Good Samaritan was specifically chosen to prove that non-believers too are capable of doing good and was Jesus' way of saying get off your high horse thinking that because you're the Chosen People that God cannot find favor among Gentiles too. Kindness is kindness wherever it comes from... you don't need to be a devout believer to behave in a respectable manner... or as the bible says, sometimes they can become "a law unto themselves." Remember, Samaritans were pretty roundly despised by the the Israelites.... That Jesus chose those people to illustrate his point also illustrates mine.... and by extension, Jar's.

That sort of "Christianity" doesn't set well with me. It makes Christianity so all-inclusive that it becomes simply a club that anyone can join through answering the charge, which is thus universal.

I don't subscribe to a Universalist style biblical view. For me, I have the ability of knowing what is biblical without having to believe in it. While I've lost some of my chops over the years (these are perishable skills) I still retain a lot of what I learned and I am fairly confident in what I know because of how many years I devoted to avid study.

So I would agree that if we are using the bible as the only metric for knowing God and what He wants then setting the bar so low for entry to believe in this hippy-dippy version of Christianity is often not scripturally supported. But then it begs the question what the purpose of the bible is and that is where Jar massively differs from other Christians. He sees it as a general guide, not an instruction manual that must be followed to the letter. Therein lies the disconnect between you two, seems to me.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:09 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 6:33 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 802 of 853 (872472)
02-27-2020 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by GDR
02-27-2020 5:48 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Once again, if we are only the result of a chance combination of particles and processes then how do we know that there is right and wrong, good an evil, or love and hate. I don't doubt that you know why love matters, but I would contend that you can only know that because there is an intelligence responsible for us being able to love. I have a hunch that you'll disagree.

It may superficially appear as such, and even supposing it is true there's really no way to define what that intelligence is. We say "God" as a kind of catch-all metric the same we speak about "Mother Nature", but its a pretty empty and non-definable term when you really stop to think about it. You might as well say gods in plurality or aliens are responsible. Its just as theoretically plausible and equally unprovable. Whether its evolution or God, you still have a chicken/egg problem.

As to love, I'm sure you are able to see that mammals in general have a much higher capacity to display and demonstrate levels of love or affection than other animals. My dogs and my cats love me. The higher the intelligence of the animal, the more pronounced the level of love is and the more it resembles our human definition of love. Chimpanzees can laugh. They can cry. They can hug. They can bury their dead. They demonstrate traits so close to our own. And isn't interesting that they just so happen to be much more highly intelligent than many other mammals that don't and can't do those things. I can laugh all day with my cat hoping she'll start laughing too, but she never does... because she does not possess the intelligence to even know what humor is.

What you are purporting is a lazy "God did it" answer in the absence of a clearly identifiable answer that, if we're being totally honest, that no one knows or could know. I used to utilize the same argument when I was a believer, that good and evil must be intrinsic otherwise how could you distinguish between them? But the reality is that isn't... When you watch a lion tear apart a baby gazelle and watch the agony of the creature, you see that the lion could care less. There's no moral conflict there. And yet that same female lion that callously and savagely disemboweled a living creature will still lovingly preen her cubs, feed her cubs with the flesh of the gazelle, etc.

Humans have a defined sense of right and wrong the same way a pack of dogs develop social rules learned by observing social cues from one another. Pack animals especially have this. And the proof that it is not necessarily universal even among humans is that still in parts of the world cannibalism is an accepted practice that elicits not a shred of guilt, where as in most parts of the world we call that "homicide" and "abuse of a corpse."

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 5:48 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 7:12 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 803 of 853 (872473)
02-27-2020 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 801 by Faith
02-27-2020 6:33 PM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Perhaps the problem is the term "total depravity?" That's a Calvinist term I may wrongly have assumed everyone here understands. It doesn't mean what you are saying above at all, but explaining it would get us deep into Calvinism which wouldn't be the place to go on this thread. I don't know where to go at this point, then.

You can start by explaining what your personal beliefs are and how you arrived at it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 6:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 804 of 853 (872474)
02-27-2020 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by GDR
02-27-2020 6:20 PM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
I'm just wondering of you see these two positions as the only options. Isn't there room in between those two positions?

Well, sure, but it was specific to how Phat and Jar view the bible differently. The point being that two people can read the exact same bible and still arrive at radically different conclusions.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 6:20 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 6:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 807 of 853 (872477)
02-27-2020 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by GDR
02-27-2020 7:12 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
I am not claiming I know, but from what I have observed over the years I am convinced without knowing it to be true.

And that's fine, I accept that. I am also in no way stating that what I just said is completely accurate it is just a preview into my rationale at the present time... which is always subject to the potential of change.

I would add however, that when I look at how our society usually treat the creatures that we eat that we aren't any better than your female lion.

True.

I get that, but I don't see that it explains sacrificial love for others that we never meet and aren't part of our gene pool or our culture. Why do we as individuals send huge amounts of money voluntarily to the third world. You can accept that it is a cultural thing but I just don't see it.

Altruism exists in the animal kingdom.... check out this unbelievable display of altruism throughout different species. Fascinating!

Now, how do we explain this? Is there any evidence that God imparts altruism among animals? Is there evidence that animals acknowledge God's existence? I can't answer it. All I can do is be in awe that it exists and marvel at the beauty of nature.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 7:12 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 8:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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