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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 56 of 853 (865703)
10-29-2019 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
10-29-2019 3:02 PM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
Phat writes:

Turek claims that atheists simply do not want to believe and many wouldn't even if presented with irrefutable evidence.

Well he's wrong, so you can disregard everything else he says.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 62 of 853 (865726)
10-29-2019 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
10-29-2019 3:34 PM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
Phat writes:

And you, Mr.Tangle are just as bad. You all always get on Faith for being so set in her ways and yet you are not providing any better arguments than the ones the apologists make. Until and unless you listen to at least one podcast I will likely disregard everything else that *you* say. I swear you guys are as bad as the Populists.

The man says…

quote:
…that atheists simply do not want to believe

Which is wrong. I'm an atheist and I'm telling you that that is wrong. It's got nothing to do with not wanting, it about there not being anything there to believe.

Like you and all the fundy believers I've ever met, he simply can't understand that and if he can't understand that he needs to shut up about everything else. It's basic.

And then there's this…

quote:
and many wouldn't even if presented with irrefutable evidence.

Only a idiot would refuse irrefutable evidence. There are idiotic atheists but really, that's just nonsense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 68 of 853 (865743)
10-30-2019 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
10-29-2019 3:02 PM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
Phat writes:

atheists simply do not want to believe

Do you think children want to stop believing in Father Christmas?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 10-29-2019 3:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-30-2019 3:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(4)
Message 70 of 853 (865746)
10-30-2019 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
10-30-2019 3:59 AM


Re: Mark Mittelberg
Phat writes:

Anyone who outgrows God had a limited view of Him to begin with. More likely you were convinced by some rational argument.

Please stop making things up in order to keep intact the wrong model you have in your head.

Up until the age of about 14 I believed just as devoutly as you do in the whole package, probably more so as I had no doubt at all about it and knew nothing about anything else.

And then I didn't.

If you remember not believing in father christmas it was very similar. It was nothing to do with being rational it was a bloody revelation. The smoke blew away and the fiction was gone.

It might make you feel better somehow to think you know things about how atheists feel but when they tell you you're wrong, you should listen. If you want to learn anything that is. Otherwise you carry on telling me what I should feel like in order to keep you're beliefs about me intact. Just be aware that you're wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 10-30-2019 3:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 112 of 853 (865953)
11-03-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
11-03-2019 9:54 AM


Re: So what do you think of this, Phat
Well I listened to a few random minutes and I didn't like it.

Am I supposed to be surprised that humanists/atheists can be good people with decent values? If he's saying that American Christians think that they aren't and don't then they're bigoted arseholes not worth listening to.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 11-03-2019 9:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 11:32 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 144 of 853 (866052)
11-04-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
11-04-2019 11:32 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

No. But you are too damn impatient. You think you have it all figured out. I am 60, and I learn slowly yet thoroughly.

I don't have it figured out, but I have figured out that the last couple of thousand years of religious thinking is bullshit.

Do you think you can find anything of value just trawling the internet looking for some egit that says something you agree with of find useful? These people know no more than you. You seem to be spending all of your spare time listening to this crap whilst not answering the questions you have yourself.

Why do you avoid the snake problem and the birth problem? Why can't you answer them?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 11:32 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 4:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 146 of 853 (866056)
11-04-2019 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
11-04-2019 4:53 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

There is no birth problem.

So you think that where you're born doesn't determine what you believe?

I guess you've given up on the snake.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 11-04-2019 4:53 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 11-04-2019 7:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 150 of 853 (866065)
11-05-2019 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
11-05-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:

You will see, however.


Now that was pure Faith talking. The world is ending, you're going to hell. The cries of the deluded that know they have lost the argument and are forced to fall back on threat and nonsensical dogma for hundreds of years.

I can learn nothing more from any of you.

You've learned nothing from us. You can't, you know what we say is wrong before we say it even when we're trying to tell you stuff about ourselves. You can't see past your beliefs.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 11-05-2019 12:05 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 11-05-2019 6:01 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 153 of 853 (866068)
11-05-2019 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
11-05-2019 6:01 AM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:

I think I've done pretty well. Most Christians wouldn't listen to either atheist podcasts or secular humanist podcasts as I have done.

You get points for listening, but you've not understood or accepted a word of it. You're still making the same mistakes that you were making years ago, still making the same assertions and assumptions about atheists that you've been told are wrong a thousand times.

I don't expect you to accept my version of the world, just understand it and not apply your own interpretation on top of it. I admit that it does seem hopeless.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 11-05-2019 6:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 172 of 853 (866160)
11-06-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
11-06-2019 12:22 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
You'd have made a great 17th century Catholic.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 12:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 11-06-2019 6:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 209 of 853 (866683)
11-14-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Phat
11-14-2019 12:22 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:

My point is that we need to be open enough to receive Him even without evidence. You have mentioned before that there is no evidence. Thus, the question: Will you take that leap of faith? Or do you feel a need to do so? Believers obviously felt a need to do so.

How do you explain loss of faith?

Nobody becomes a believer by accident or by birthright.

Of course they do, that's why you're not a muslim.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 12:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 2:36 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 216 of 853 (866700)
11-14-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
11-14-2019 2:36 PM


Re: Where The Con Stops and Logic Begins
Phat writes:

Then why was I not a believer for the first 30 years of my life?

Have you asked yourself the same question?

But isn't it amazing that you chose to believe in a god that was the god of your culture, probably the god of your parents and your upbringing? Just a coincidence?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 2:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 6:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 226 of 853 (866721)
11-15-2019 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
11-14-2019 6:02 PM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Phat writes:

It usually happens that way, though not always.


The overwhelming majority of believers are introduced to their belief by the culture they're born into.

The rest are infected by cultural invasion.

There is no recorded example of someone catching Christianity independently.

To believe in Jesus, some human has to introduce him. Religion is a meme.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 11-14-2019 6:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 5:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 229 of 853 (866745)
11-15-2019 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Phat
11-15-2019 5:58 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Phat writes:

Agreed. Which only asserts that cultural teaching originates in its own environment.

Does that mean anything? If so what?

Invalid conclusion. There are lots of examples never recorded.

If they're not recorded how do you know?

Correct. Christ must "live" in the person doing the introduction.

Cobblers. Kids are indoctrinated by the culture they're born into.

True. Or an invention of the mind. What we need to determine is which category Christianity falls under. A creation at some point in the mind of a storyteller or a meme passed from Creator to Son to Disciples to more disciples, etc.

Both, obviously.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 5:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8113
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 230 of 853 (866746)
11-15-2019 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Theodoric
11-15-2019 8:26 AM


Re: Ravi vs Sam Harris
Theo writes:

I have no idea what the purpose of the change of the color text serves. I do find it irritating and difficult to read.

I've noticed that the more bonkers the believer is, the more he resorts to weird formats and colours.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 8:26 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 11-15-2019 10:41 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 236 by Theodoric, posted 11-15-2019 11:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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