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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 475 of 1086 (868362)
12-11-2019 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 473 by jar
12-11-2019 8:56 AM


Re: Uncovering Why Apologists as a group are dishonest
jar writes:
Yes Phat, that is exactly what the Jesus character in the Bible tells us to do.
But if its simply a character in a book, how is that any different than listening to yourself?
Why is it that you have never been able to tell me what that really means?
Because you refuse to accept any of the bumper stickers (as you put it) explanations. Nobody can tell you anything you will accept or understand, apparently. You have a preconceived bias against American Christianity anyway.
You have already made up your mind as to what it means. Scripture tells us that no man can come to know God unless the Spirit draws them. That's one reason why no human has ever been able to offer you an explanation of what stuff means that many people accept.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by jar, posted 12-11-2019 8:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by jar, posted 12-11-2019 11:16 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 476 of 1086 (868364)
12-11-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Theodoric
12-11-2019 9:19 AM


Re: Dr.Ron Rhodes
What do you expect? A term paper? He has nothing new to teach. You lack the belief anyway so why bother complaining? I bet you go to restaurants and grumble about the service!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Theodoric, posted 12-11-2019 9:19 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Theodoric, posted 12-11-2019 10:25 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 479 by ringo, posted 12-11-2019 2:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 480 of 1086 (868390)
12-11-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by jar
12-11-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Uncovering Why Apologists as a group are dishonest
jar writes:
bumper sticker explanations, word salad without meaning or substance is all anyone has ever been able to offer.
A common pattern that I have observed from the Christians I associate with and believe the integrity of is that they studied and searched the scriptures a lot, studied other beliefs, and yet had one basic event in common:
They never threw any of it away
They felt a tug at their heart and soul...(which to you would be a red flag rather than an epiphany) and they finally surrendered to what they honestly felt to be a living Christ. A major change subsequently happened to them and all doubt was vanquished.
You never understood the process (which may actually mean you were using full critical thinking skills) and never understood what it was that "tugged at your heart and soul" and what it meant for GOD to be alive, and what it meant that the character was not limited to the book. Thus you never allowed yourself to surrender and thus never felt any sort of epiphany.
You seem to value sacred studies more than simply Jesus as the final answer. I respect though disagree with this only in that I believe Jesus is the final answer...its always good to study how the other folk believe.
Add by edit: Perhaps what I describe as surrender is to you the sizzle without the steak. You likely believe that Christianity is a lifelong commitment to doing rather than a one time surrender. I appreciate your perspective, but I firmly believe in the initial surrender which is most definitely felt as a major change.
You and ringo and others may argue that this change is an illusion. An easy solution. A release from responsibility rather than a commitment. But I don't think it has to be that way. And I don't think people can truly commune with GOD, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit without it. But to those who are content with critically valuing all religions as equally valid and plausible, (at the same time in the same cultural space) relativism supersedes absolute truth.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by jar, posted 12-11-2019 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by jar, posted 12-11-2019 4:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 481 of 1086 (868391)
12-11-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by ringo
12-11-2019 2:10 PM


Re: Dr.Ron Rhodes
You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. But look at what it has done for you. You are no longer believers. Why would I want that?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by ringo, posted 12-11-2019 2:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Theodoric, posted 12-11-2019 4:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 12-11-2019 4:44 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 485 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2019 5:01 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 487 by Faith, posted 12-11-2019 9:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 498 of 1086 (868480)
12-13-2019 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 488 by Tangle
12-12-2019 2:55 AM


An Honest Confession For Christmas 2019.
I read the article from Wiki on Motivated Reasoning
quote:
Social science research suggests that reasoning away contradictions is psychologically easier than revising feelings. As previously discussed, emotions are shown to color how "facts" are perceived. Feelings come first, and evidence is used in the service of those feelings. Evidence that supports what is already believed, is accepted. Evidence which contradicts those beliefs is not.[19]
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I know that when any evidence is presented which refute my beliefs, I will and do often ignore it, justifying that the demons have somne powerful weapons to sway the minds on this planet. My belief, in fact, is valued (in conjunction with my feelings) as stronger than any possible evidence.
I'll never win any arguments here at EvC to begin with. You people are frustratingly unbiased towards God. I honestly don't think this will turn out well for any of us.
Even if God did not exist, I would have to create Him in my mind in order to survive another day. I don't think I need to worry about doing so, believing that He indeed does exist. I will honestly admit that I prefer the explanations of the Apologists and believers. Thus I concede the argument over the Christian Apologists, knowing that I will never win. If God Himself was undeniably proven NOT to exist, and if Jesus was simply another Spanish surname, I would be a very disappointed and disillusioned man. At times, I think I would rather throw myself on a grenade to protect other soldiers, but I worry that my side does not have many soldiers left. It is admittedly depressing to contemplate. Belief is very important to me.
Merry Christmas EvC.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2019 2:55 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2019 4:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 504 of 1086 (868525)
12-13-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by jar
12-13-2019 8:31 AM


Re: Summary
jar writes:
No information, arguments or evidence was presented in defense of the Christian Apologists.
No information was uncovered that showed any indication that the apologist--any of them---were lying or dishonest either. And I see no evidence that your supposed plain reading of the Bible is in any way emulated by very many people. The ones whom do stick to it have no belief or bias anyway. I am unconvinced that the meaning of the text is as you suggest.
We likely will never see eye to eye on that either.
You cant have it both ways. You can't claim that the Bible is simply a human invention and then turn around and say that those of us who ascribe to it are interpreting it wrong. An unbeliever and/or critical thinker can never tell a believer what they *should* believe. And if you call us dishonest for having a different interpretation, you need to explain why this book that you yourself say was written, edited, and redacted by humans is supposed to be what we need to follow. We follow the Spirit of God and the inerrant meaning...not what any guy off the street can read and claim meaning without having a belief to begin with.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 8:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 510 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2019 3:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 512 of 1086 (868610)
12-15-2019 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
10-20-2019 4:49 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
ringo writes:
The book says what it says whether it was written in God's own handwriting or by a bunch of goat herders. If it was inspired by God, why do you have so little regard for the words He chose? Why would He need apologists to explain to you what it really, really, really means? Why do you portray Him as incapable of communicating for Himself?
Because I'm wise enough to know that God does not lie. I'm also wise enough to know that God is nowhere near as insecure as jar portrays the character as being. Granted, jar is simply reinforcing his position that the book was written by and through humans. Both of you are nauseatingly repetitive emphasizing that the book says what it says. I too will argue this point when the scripture supports what I want it to say. If, in fact the book was written entirely by God, it is a huge case of cognitive dissonance for me. It simply does not say what my inner unction tells me it *should* say. I turn to the apologists rather than a bunch of critically thinking atheists because I need people who also believe that God speaks to them rather than a bunch of non-believers who are nearly universally certain that God does not speak at all.
Furthermore, I turn to prayer. I am quite certain I will get better answers there than I would here or from any apologists either.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 10-20-2019 4:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 8:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:55 PM Phat has replied
 Message 518 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2019 10:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 516 of 1086 (868633)
12-15-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by ringo
12-15-2019 1:55 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
So you're wiser than the people who wrote the Book?
In some ways yes. I know more about reality than they do. How wise can a goat herder be? The God they encountered will be the one I encounter, however. I too can write a book. In my book, the Holy Spirit will be with the believers. The skeptics and those who demand evidence to prove belief will be left in the dust. You likely will say that it will be the other way around and that those of us who accept God without evidence are delusional.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Theodoric, posted 12-15-2019 8:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 523 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 10:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 520 of 1086 (868656)
12-16-2019 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 517 by Theodoric
12-15-2019 8:46 PM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
Theodoric writes:
Do you think believers should be able to punish nonbelievers?
Nope. Remember the woman caught in adultery?
John8:7 ESV writes:
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.
None of us are worthy to discipline you. I believe that before 30 more years have passed you will see enough to confirm God's possible existence. That's about all I can guess.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Theodoric, posted 12-15-2019 8:46 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 525 of 1086 (868662)
12-16-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by ringo
12-16-2019 10:52 AM


The Goat Whisperer
You may know more about driving cars and operating computers but what makes you think you know more about God?
There may be hope for you yet! The only way to *know* about God is by encountering God. They had no books and no apologists. Just sheep, goats, a starry night and plenty of time to think. They obviously were moved to write about their experiences...and writing took a great deal of effort in those days. So I believe that they had an encounter.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 10:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 11:59 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 526 of 1086 (868663)
12-16-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by ringo
12-16-2019 10:54 AM


Re: Testing Whom? Testing What?
But you'll gladly gloat about being "wiser" than us.
Huh? I was referring to the bronze Age Goat Herders. Not you specifically. All that I think I may have over you...and what the Goat herders too could claim...is in encountering God. The jury is out on that one, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 12:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 529 of 1086 (868666)
12-16-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by ringo
12-16-2019 11:59 AM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
double post
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 12:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 530 of 1086 (868667)
12-16-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by ringo
12-16-2019 11:59 AM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
I know you are going to scold me for quoting another author rather than telling my side in my own words, but this is how I learn. I read the commentary, evaluate the arguments made by others, and decide whether or not I would agree with them or not.
First, the author:
quote:
Cameron B. R. Howard, associate professor of Old Testament, joined the Luther Seminary faculty in July 2012. She previously held visiting appointments at the Interdenominational Theological Center in Atlanta (2011-12) and at the School of Theology at Sewanee, the University of the South (2010-11). She has also served as an adjunct faculty member at Emory University’s Candler School of Theology and at Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, Ga.
Howard received the Bachelor of Arts degree cum laude with honors in religion from Davidson College, where she was inducted into the Phi Beta Kappa honor society. She holds the Master of Theological Studies degree from Candler School of Theology and the Master of Theology degree from Columbia Theological Seminary. She received her Ph.D. from Emory University in 2010. Howard is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature.
Next, her article on the whole genesis/snake/God lies thing:
quote:
Who tells the truth in this story: God or the serpent?
God says to Adam, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die (2:16-17). Yet when Adam and Eve eat it, they do not die. So, did God lie? Did God offer up an alternative fact? Did God tell all the truth, but tell it slant? Was God simply wrong?
The serpent -- who is only presented as an animal in the story, not as Satan -- says to Eve, Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden? (3:1) We and Adam (and apparently Eve, too, though she was not yet formed when God gave the command) know that this is not at all what God said. Does the serpent also know this? We have several reasons to think it does. First, the narrator calls the serpent crafty or shrewd, implying the animal is not simply making casual conversation. Second, the serpent is indeed correct about the outcome of the humans’ snack. The snake promises that once they eat the fruit, their eyes will be opened; they will see and know. This is precisely what occurs in verse 7: their eyes are opened, and they know they are naked.
The serpent also promises that Eve and Adam will become like gods, ones who know good and evil (3:5).2 This outcome is not immediately confirmed in the text; however, at Genesis 3:22, God declares that the humans have indeed become like us, knowing good and evil, fueling God’s expulsion of the humans from the garden. Thus, the snake seems to have a lot of correct information about the garden’s trees and the consequences of eating from them -- information that God either did not know or did not reveal to the humans. The serpent’s question to Eve is not exactly a lie, but in its craftiness the serpent does appear to be setting up these humans, or God, or both, for a confrontation.
In an era when fake news proliferates, many of us crave some straightforward answers, especially to our most deeply held questions of faith. But this text is a stark reminder that Scripture does not always provide answers, or much of anything straightforward. If we come to this story believing that God exhibits all the omni-categories -- omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent -- then the story is going to challenge some of those assumptions. Does the snake know more than God? Is the snake more of a truth-teller than God? Those questions jar us, if we allow ourselves to ask them. Yet asking those difficult questions is one of the ways we come to glimpse the fullness of who God is, and how we might live our own lives faithfully.
In her essay The Soil That Is Scripture, Ellen Davis advocates reading the Bible with the virtues of humility, charity, and patience. She describes a patient reading of Scripture as akin to reading poetry, ... slowing down to ponder each phrase, to wonder why this word was chosen and not another, how this line or paragraph or story builds on what precedes and leads into what follows.3 The story of the garden is a wonderful place to practice this discipline of reading with patience. We tend to read and preach this story as if it is about one topic alone: sin. Sin is indeed a critical theme for Genesis 2-3, and I commend to you the many excellent evaluations of the topic in other commentaries.4 But this text also presents an opportunity to reflect not just on particular theological themes, but also on the sheer art of biblical storytelling.
Seeing and knowing are key words throughout the text. When Adam and Eve eat the fruit, their eyes are opened and they understand that they are naked, as discussed above. But even before partaking of the fruit, and after conversing with the serpent, Eve can see new things: that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise (3:6). The encounter with this strange animal is already revelatory on its own. The story also connects the humans and the serpent via word choice; the word for crafty (‘arum), describing the serpent (3:1), is a pun on the word for naked (‘arummim), describing the humans (2:25). These are just a few of the elements of literary craft that reading the story patiently reveals.
Scripture continually challenges our presumptions about the Creator and creation alike. Every time we think we have a story figured out, something new will jump out, or our presumptions will be met with counter-testimonies. It can be difficult to bring fresh eyes to texts that are so familiar, and that are so freighted with hundreds of years’ worth of interpretation. Within the story-world of Genesis 2-3, the relationship of both God and the serpent to the truth is ambiguous. I do not ultimately think either God or the serpent is a liar, despite the discrepancies in each character’s speech. And yet, we must be willing to wrestle with those types of jarring questions, or else risk missing the newness, wonder, and possibility that listening to and for God’s word can bring.
The Bible is not the place to go if you want, like Joe Friday in the old TV show Dragnet, just the facts, ma’am. The Bible is not a collection of facts. It is a collection of stories, poems, songs, prayers, and remembrances. It invites us to dwell over its details, revel in its beauty, and reflect on its difficult questions. The wonder of biblical storytelling is itself worthy of proclamation.5 In the Dickinson poem quoted at the beginning of this commentary, telling the truth slant is not advocacy for trying to pull the wool over the eyes of our neighbors. Instead, Dickinson describes Truth -- with a capital T -- as so dazzling that we must receive it gradually, or else be blinded by its grandeur. Perhaps this is why Scripture is often such a puzzle; the fullness of God’s Truth is too much to chew in one bite.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 531 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 12:41 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 533 by jar, posted 12-16-2019 12:52 PM Phat has replied
 Message 536 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2019 1:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 538 of 1086 (868677)
12-16-2019 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by jar
12-16-2019 12:52 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
You have the typical arrogance to dismiss a learned theologian as a carny huckster when you yourself couldnt even finish college! Where are your credentials apart from creating God in the image that YOU want?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by jar, posted 12-16-2019 12:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by jar, posted 12-16-2019 3:37 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 540 of 1086 (868679)
12-16-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by ringo
12-16-2019 12:44 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
You're halfway there.
And yet you and jar can market and support a story about a God Who lies? Absolute blasphemy! It does not take a rocket scientist to know that God cannot lie.
Titus1:1-2 writes:
1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
But of course, you will come up with some excuse or another of why my quote from the book does not contradict your insistence that the god "character" lied. I find many instances where other Theologians describe the belief that they were taught regarding those passages. Its easy to cry that every single Theologian who doesn't see it your way is dishonest. Clearly neither one of you can do anything but stand on the premise. I think its because you want the idea that Genesis is simply written by humans and that these humans wanted the god character they invented to lie. You have attempted to trash the idea that God exists outside of the book characters and portrayals. You basically argue the side of evil, here. You reduce the character of God to human creation and then defend that premise, accusing Christians themselves of ignoring the message of the book---a book in which according to you, God is simply a human evolved plot device. I dismiss your assertions as well as jars based on an argument from popularity. Who am I going to believe? Professionals or armchair skeptics and critics of organized religion?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by ringo, posted 12-16-2019 12:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by jar, posted 12-16-2019 4:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 544 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2019 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 12-17-2019 11:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
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