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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: But if its simply a character in a book, how is that any different than listening to yourself?
Yes Phat, that is exactly what the Jesus character in the Bible tells us to do.Why is it that you have never been able to tell me what that really means? Because you refuse to accept any of the bumper stickers (as you put it) explanations. Nobody can tell you anything you will accept or understand, apparently. You have a preconceived bias against American Christianity anyway.You have already made up your mind as to what it means. Scripture tells us that no man can come to know God unless the Spirit draws them. That's one reason why no human has ever been able to offer you an explanation of what stuff means that many people accept. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
What do you expect? A term paper? He has nothing new to teach. You lack the belief anyway so why bother complaining? I bet you go to restaurants and grumble about the service!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: A common pattern that I have observed from the Christians I associate with and believe the integrity of is that they studied and searched the scriptures a lot, studied other beliefs, and yet had one basic event in common: bumper sticker explanations, word salad without meaning or substance is all anyone has ever been able to offer.They never threw any of it away They felt a tug at their heart and soul...(which to you would be a red flag rather than an epiphany) and they finally surrendered to what they honestly felt to be a living Christ. A major change subsequently happened to them and all doubt was vanquished. You never understood the process (which may actually mean you were using full critical thinking skills) and never understood what it was that "tugged at your heart and soul" and what it meant for GOD to be alive, and what it meant that the character was not limited to the book. Thus you never allowed yourself to surrender and thus never felt any sort of epiphany. You seem to value sacred studies more than simply Jesus as the final answer. I respect though disagree with this only in that I believe Jesus is the final answer...its always good to study how the other folk believe. Add by edit: Perhaps what I describe as surrender is to you the sizzle without the steak. You likely believe that Christianity is a lifelong commitment to doing rather than a one time surrender. I appreciate your perspective, but I firmly believe in the initial surrender which is most definitely felt as a major change.You and ringo and others may argue that this change is an illusion. An easy solution. A release from responsibility rather than a commitment. But I don't think it has to be that way. And I don't think people can truly commune with GOD, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit without it. But to those who are content with critically valuing all religions as equally valid and plausible, (at the same time in the same cultural space) relativism supersedes absolute truth. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. But look at what it has done for you. You are no longer believers. Why would I want that?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I read the article from Wiki on Motivated Reasoning
quote:I think you've hit the nail on the head. I know that when any evidence is presented which refute my beliefs, I will and do often ignore it, justifying that the demons have somne powerful weapons to sway the minds on this planet. My belief, in fact, is valued (in conjunction with my feelings) as stronger than any possible evidence. I'll never win any arguments here at EvC to begin with. You people are frustratingly unbiased towards God. I honestly don't think this will turn out well for any of us. Even if God did not exist, I would have to create Him in my mind in order to survive another day. I don't think I need to worry about doing so, believing that He indeed does exist. I will honestly admit that I prefer the explanations of the Apologists and believers. Thus I concede the argument over the Christian Apologists, knowing that I will never win. If God Himself was undeniably proven NOT to exist, and if Jesus was simply another Spanish surname, I would be a very disappointed and disillusioned man. At times, I think I would rather throw myself on a grenade to protect other soldiers, but I worry that my side does not have many soldiers left. It is admittedly depressing to contemplate. Belief is very important to me. Merry Christmas EvC. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: No information was uncovered that showed any indication that the apologist--any of them---were lying or dishonest either. And I see no evidence that your supposed plain reading of the Bible is in any way emulated by very many people. The ones whom do stick to it have no belief or bias anyway. I am unconvinced that the meaning of the text is as you suggest. No information, arguments or evidence was presented in defense of the Christian Apologists. We likely will never see eye to eye on that either. You cant have it both ways. You can't claim that the Bible is simply a human invention and then turn around and say that those of us who ascribe to it are interpreting it wrong. An unbeliever and/or critical thinker can never tell a believer what they *should* believe. And if you call us dishonest for having a different interpretation, you need to explain why this book that you yourself say was written, edited, and redacted by humans is supposed to be what we need to follow. We follow the Spirit of God and the inerrant meaning...not what any guy off the street can read and claim meaning without having a belief to begin with.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Because I'm wise enough to know that God does not lie. I'm also wise enough to know that God is nowhere near as insecure as jar portrays the character as being. Granted, jar is simply reinforcing his position that the book was written by and through humans. Both of you are nauseatingly repetitive emphasizing that the book says what it says. I too will argue this point when the scripture supports what I want it to say. If, in fact the book was written entirely by God, it is a huge case of cognitive dissonance for me. It simply does not say what my inner unction tells me it *should* say. I turn to the apologists rather than a bunch of critically thinking atheists because I need people who also believe that God speaks to them rather than a bunch of non-believers who are nearly universally certain that God does not speak at all. The book says what it says whether it was written in God's own handwriting or by a bunch of goat herders. If it was inspired by God, why do you have so little regard for the words He chose? Why would He need apologists to explain to you what it really, really, really means? Why do you portray Him as incapable of communicating for Himself? Furthermore, I turn to prayer. I am quite certain I will get better answers there than I would here or from any apologists either.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So you're wiser than the people who wrote the Book? In some ways yes. I know more about reality than they do. How wise can a goat herder be? The God they encountered will be the one I encounter, however. I too can write a book. In my book, the Holy Spirit will be with the believers. The skeptics and those who demand evidence to prove belief will be left in the dust. You likely will say that it will be the other way around and that those of us who accept God without evidence are delusional. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Theodoric writes: Nope. Remember the woman caught in adultery? Do you think believers should be able to punish nonbelievers?John8:7 ESV writes: None of us are worthy to discipline you. I believe that before 30 more years have passed you will see enough to confirm God's possible existence. That's about all I can guess. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You may know more about driving cars and operating computers but what makes you think you know more about God? There may be hope for you yet! The only way to *know* about God is by encountering God. They had no books and no apologists. Just sheep, goats, a starry night and plenty of time to think. They obviously were moved to write about their experiences...and writing took a great deal of effort in those days. So I believe that they had an encounter. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But you'll gladly gloat about being "wiser" than us. Huh? I was referring to the bronze Age Goat Herders. Not you specifically. All that I think I may have over you...and what the Goat herders too could claim...is in encountering God. The jury is out on that one, however.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
double post
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I know you are going to scold me for quoting another author rather than telling my side in my own words, but this is how I learn. I read the commentary, evaluate the arguments made by others, and decide whether or not I would agree with them or not.
First, the author: quote:Next, her article on the whole genesis/snake/God lies thing: quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You have the typical arrogance to dismiss a learned theologian as a carny huckster when you yourself couldnt even finish college! Where are your credentials apart from creating God in the image that YOU want?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You're halfway there. And yet you and jar can market and support a story about a God Who lies? Absolute blasphemy! It does not take a rocket scientist to know that God cannot lie.Titus1:1-2 writes: But of course, you will come up with some excuse or another of why my quote from the book does not contradict your insistence that the god "character" lied. I find many instances where other Theologians describe the belief that they were taught regarding those passages. Its easy to cry that every single Theologian who doesn't see it your way is dishonest. Clearly neither one of you can do anything but stand on the premise. I think its because you want the idea that Genesis is simply written by humans and that these humans wanted the god character they invented to lie. You have attempted to trash the idea that God exists outside of the book characters and portrayals. You basically argue the side of evil, here. You reduce the character of God to human creation and then defend that premise, accusing Christians themselves of ignoring the message of the book---a book in which according to you, God is simply a human evolved plot device. I dismiss your assertions as well as jars based on an argument from popularity. Who am I going to believe? Professionals or armchair skeptics and critics of organized religion? 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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