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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 1086 (866449)
11-11-2019 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
11-11-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The RCC saves nobody
The Bible disagrees with you but oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 11-11-2019 2:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 11-11-2019 2:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 197 of 1086 (866467)
11-11-2019 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
11-11-2019 2:50 PM


Re: Faith and Works
You are just wildlyh guessing about things that are clearly presented in the writings of the Reformers. Nothing to do with "works for the church," It was all determined from scripture. The RCC did prescribe works for salvation, but scripture says no, absolutely no works at all will save you, it's all by faith. That's what the Reformers, particularly Luther, discovered. He had previously felt despairing of salvation because he knew he could never overcome all his sins, so when he discovered that God saves us Himself without any input from us it was a savating revelation to him. "The just shall live by faith" is the verse that transformed him. No longer did he have to acquire his own rightouesness in order to be saved, he was to live by faith in God alone, and then works were done in God's power, not for salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 11-11-2019 2:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 1086 (866849)
11-16-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
11-16-2019 4:19 PM


Re: O what a tangled web we weave
Guess Theodoric is a touchy type in general. I thought I was the only one who pushed his buttons. Maybe we should, or I should, work at ladling on the syrup in case it might soften him up.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1086 (866910)
11-17-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
11-17-2019 5:59 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
"Pansy" is commonly used as a slur on homosexual men, but I believe you when you say you didn't know that and would suppose you probably think of it as more like "wimp." Yes? Of course you are not going to get the slightest benefit of the doubt from some here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 11-17-2019 5:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Theodoric, posted 11-17-2019 11:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 260 of 1086 (866911)
11-17-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by PaulK
11-17-2019 6:57 AM


"almah"
This is an argument we often have with apologists for Judaism, who of course in their zeal to deny the truth of Christianity, insist that the word "almah" means "young woman" and only "young woman" and never "virgin." The New Testament of course, specifically Matthew 1:23, translates "almah" as "virgin," that is enough authority for a Christian. I'd have to look it up but I recall that there is a place in the OT where that word is translated by the Jews themselves as "virgin." ...Oh let me check, I think it was in describing Dinah, the sister of the patriarchs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 6:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:22 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 1086 (866914)
11-17-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by PaulK
11-17-2019 11:22 AM


Re: "almah"
Cmmentary I found says that Matthew did do the translation himself, and now I'm forgetting the evidence. Oh, simply the fact that the Jewish translation of Isaiah 7:14 didn't use "virgin."
It turns out that it was not Dinah I was thinking of, but the word "virgins" used twice in the Song of Solomon: 1:3 and 6:8, both trnalsations of "almah."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by PaulK, posted 11-17-2019 11:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 1086 (866915)
11-17-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Theodoric
11-17-2019 11:43 AM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
The idea that we can't say something "insulting" about some group or other is silly. It's not the same thing as insulting a member of the forum. I call the Republicans "wimps" who should be standing up for Trump but aren't. Just a version of how Phat used "pansy" I would suppose. Don't get too "nice" about these things, it only leads to totalitarian control and shutting up people's free speech.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 1086 (866919)
11-17-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Theodoric
11-17-2019 12:03 PM


Re: "almah"
Arach was/is learned in things Hebrew and Judaism so he's most likely going to support the Jewish point of view. I of course believe the authority of the New Testament on the subject. But arach was always interesting, it would be nice if he'd come back for a while.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 1086 (866920)
11-17-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by PaulK
11-17-2019 11:54 AM


Re: "almah"
You're right, I got confused. I don't know the source of the translation of Song of Songs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 271 of 1086 (866928)
11-17-2019 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
11-17-2019 1:13 PM


Re: Have you no sense of decency?
Depends on what Phat had in mind when he said it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 11-17-2019 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 293 of 1086 (867022)
11-19-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by AZPaul3
11-19-2019 8:47 AM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
its virtually a consensus within Christianity that the snake lied.
That is the whole point of ringo’s argument. The vast majority consensus of Christian beliefs are formed not by what’s in the bible but by what the self-serving priests have interpreted.
According to the story itself, the actual script as published, your majority consensus Christian belief that the snake lied is false. This glaring disconnect between what you choose to believe and the actual book will not be swept away no matter how insistent you become. The snake stuff is not going away.
Sigh.
All you atheists plus some of those misguided wannabe "Christians" really need to do is give just a teensy weensy bit of benefit of the doubt to two thousand years of thousands of biblical exegetes and millions of Bible-reading believers, just a teensy weensy bit of sheer logic or even . just plain humanity... to understand that your first kneejerk take on the Bible has to be wrong and those thousands of years of SERIOUS CHRISTIANS aren't that stupid and aren't liars trying to hold the masses captive. JUST A LITTLE LOGIC, JUST A LITTLE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. Sheesh.
The snake told the truth that we would know good and evil in a real way as Adam and Eve hadn't before because all they'd known is good. They knew in their heads that it was bad to eat the fruit God had forbidden but they didn't experience the evil that follows on disobedience until after they disobeyed. NOW we can see the evil consequences of our sins in all the sufferings and death that came on the human race because of their sin and all our sins on top of it.
But the snake lied when he said they wouldn't die. They were immortal before and after their disobedience death entered the world. It says so in the New Testament if you wsant me to look it up:" By one man sin entered the world and by sin then death. I don't remember where it says that. Because of their sin they died though it took a thousand years in their case and less and less time to death for their descendants, and now we get maybe eight decades if we're lucky. And that isn't mentioning all the horrific diseases the human race suffers, and every other kind of death too, such as being eating by dragons among other things. Hit by a bus, thrown into the arena with the lions, drowning, guillotined, whatever.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 8:47 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 11-19-2019 11:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 302 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 11:48 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 296 of 1086 (867027)
11-19-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by ringo
11-19-2019 11:18 AM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
Paul has the same authority as Moses had. Nothing he says can "overturn" anything in the OT, so we know he is explaining it. And that was known anyway by all believers before Paul, they all knew death had entered by sin.
They DID die "in the day" they ate of it, death began to work in them when they lost communication with God which was the first death, and all diseases and sufferings after that are death too, the process of death that began with the sin: "The wages of sin is death."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 11-19-2019 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 1086 (867038)
11-19-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by AZPaul3
11-19-2019 11:48 AM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
True, you don't if you don't mind being stupid and illogical and without a shred of grace toward the rest of the human race..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 11:48 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 1:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 304 of 1086 (867041)
11-19-2019 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by ringo
11-19-2019 11:43 AM


the Supernatural Consistency of Scripture
The amazing thing about the Bible is that all 66 of its books work together in a supernatural way despite the independent writings that make it up, all working together toward a single supernatural revelation of the mind of God. This could not happen simply with indifividual prophets in different times and cultural contexts writing from their own separate messages from God. This is major evidence for the supernatural inspiration of scripture,and a major caveat against picking and choosing from among its writings. You may see this if you read it as it is supposed to be read, each part building on each other part. That will mean giving up some of your first takes on a reading to see how it fits into the grand design. Perhaps only a believer can actually do this.
===================
By the way, ringo. I see on the Discussion thread that you claim I'm disobeying the rules and never stopped disobeying them. I can't post on that thread but I want to answer you. Ever since I said I was going to try to be good I've done my very best to do just that and thought I was succeeding. Very recently I fell off the wagon and called someone an idiot. Maybe other times I've lost track of. But overall for many months now I've made an honest effort to avoid insulting anyone. So Percy's censorship has not been making any sense to me at all. It's hard to know since all I see is the censored words and don't know where he found them offensive. I think he's punishing me for my politi8cal views and not for insulting people, and AZP seems to be saying he agrees with me about that. Anyway, if you really believe what you say about me, please give examples of what you mean ---preferably on the Discussion Problems thread.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 11-19-2019 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2019 1:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 308 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2019 2:18 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 310 by ringo, posted 11-19-2019 9:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 336 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:09 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 1086 (867045)
11-19-2019 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by AZPaul3
11-19-2019 1:38 PM


Re: stop posting meaningless feel good advertising
But as for grace toward the rest of the human race you christians destroyed that millennia ago when you abandoned the teachings of your prophet.
Which prophet? We've got lots of them. Oh, I guess you mean Jesus? A prophet and much more. But OK, you lllke his teachings?
If your right hand offend you, cut it off; if your right eye offend you, cut it out?" Like that one? There are more I could mention but I have to leave soon.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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