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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: It is impossible for both to be true. Either the stories were made up or they actually happened. I believe that they happened. You don't. Ah. I missed the capital C in creator. Obviously the stories were created by people. Adam and Eve, Arks, floods etc etc - all obvious myths.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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quote: Utter crap. ffs Phat, please stop saying this nonsensical stuff, it's embarrassing. All you're doing is trying to confirm your silly beliefs to yourself. I DO NOT HAVE YOUR FUCKING SPIRIT. The idea is offensive to me. I don't need an invisible ghost to tell me what's right, I'm my own agent not a puppet. Grow up man.
quote: 'Natural man' is also caring, supportive and unselfish. Why pick one attribute and claim it for god and not the other?
quote: More crap. 'Rising above' rape, theft and murder is incredibly easy for me and I'd guess you too. When I was a kid I stole some stamps from a shop - I was absolutely terrified and never did it again. Behaving like a shit is as hard as behaving well for most of us.
quote:as always, you're just wrong. We're built to be both selfish AND caring. *That's* what's natural. It's society that pushes us in the direction of travel that promotes pro-social values and demotes anti-social values. It's got nothing to do with ghosts. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: The natural man(or skeptic or atheist or agnostic) can't even wrap their mind around a living God. Even? You're kidding. Wtf is a living god? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: From what I understand, its basically collective ownership. Nothing is privately owned. That like saying Christianity is the polluted, corrupted, bad-natured and near-evil shit that Faith believes in.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Is there a thread somewhere on this 'the snake lied' stuff?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
It's God's word Phat, why doesn't speak to you directly? Why do you think it needs lot's of complicated interpretations much of which contradicts itself?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. And why wouldn't you want to do that? Your god gave you a mind, what do you use a mind for except for independent thought?
But look at what it has done for you. You are no longer believers. Why would I want that? Well that's a really interesting question. Can you answer it? Can you even begin to think about what it would be like not to have this burden of belief on your shoulders? Take the red pill. I'll give you one that only lasts a week so you don't need to worry about a permanent change to a better way of living.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: we don't stop thinking. You certainly don't stop thinking. You spending you time thinking up ridiculous scenarios to maintain an impossible believe in the face of overwhelming evidence. Poor old Phat spends his thinking time on contradictory, usually meaningless mystical waffle. What you both do is motivated thinking not critical thinking Motivated reasoning - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Phat often implies that thinking is at odds with belief and I'm saying it's not. Your opinion about what kind of thinking believers do isn't relevant. Objective, critical thinking is always relevant. All other kinds are works of imagination.
But basically we acquire knowledge of God and other "things unseen" by believing the Biblical witnesses, and we grow in knowledge of all these things by studying them. You have no knowledge of god and there is nothing to study except the works of man.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I'm talking about objective critical thinking. No you're not, you're talking religious babble. When you state that where science shows something in the bible to be wrong you simply declare science wrong. Science is objective, critical thinking, declaring that if the bible says something is true then it must be, is the opposite of any kind of thinking. It's pure delusion.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Objective critical thinking. It is impossible to be thinking critically and objectively if you declare that the bible is literally true and declare any objective evidence that falsifies it to be in error. What you do is the opposite of what critical thinking is and the reason that science has become the only test of reality that is useful.
You just get your head tied in knots when the ubject is omethijg beyond the senses but that's your own problem. Anything that is beyond our ability to sense it can not be objectively analysed. You can believe, dream, speculate, hypothesise, philosophise, whatever - but that is not a rational, objective, testable process. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: I know that when any evidence is presented which refute my beliefs, I will and do often ignore it, justifying that the demons have somne powerful weapons to sway the minds on this planet. My belief, in fact, is valued (in conjunction with my feelings) as stronger than any possible evidence. And Faith does the same but doubled in spades. Surely you can see that when something like the Flood can be shown to be a flat out falsehood beyond all possible doubt, then it's just wrong and you have to adapt your belief to accommodate it? Otherwise you're just plain mad? Personally, I think you're better off like GDR our flexible friend, who can hang on to a nice woolly, bendable belief that can absorb most challenges. But not all of course - you can't square a loving god with the reality of suffering so that final hurdle is never jumped, simply put off to another day and then forgotten until an impertinent atheist drags it out again and watches the believer swerve off sideways again. I know you can't believe it but following evidence and reality wherever it leads is far less troubling to the mind that trying to maintain a delusion. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: The Bible is not a collection of facts. It is a collection of stories, poems, songs, prayers, and remembrances. This is at least true.
It invites us to dwell over its details, revel in its beauty, and reflect on its difficult questions. The wonder of biblical storytelling is itself worthy of proclamation. Religious waffle. It's a simple folk tale.
Perhaps this is why Scripture is often such a puzzle; the fullness of God’s Truth is too much to chew in one bite. These people spout such utter crap. It's not a puzzle, it's a couple of variations on a simple folk tale no different to thousands of others. It holds no more beauty, insight and relevance than any other simple story. The only puzzle it contains is why so many people think it's history. Take that red pill and tell me it's not just myth - if you read it not having been indoctrinated into your religion, you'd think it childish.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: And yet you and jar can market and support a story about a God Who lies? You're getting muddled, I'm the one that doesn't believe that your god exists or existed. But as far as the story goes, it is what it says so why not read it.
Absolute blasphemy! So stone me to death; isn't that what you should do according to your book?
It does not take a rocket scientist to know that God cannot lie. So you've got a problem haven't you? Best not to think too much about it eh?
But of course, you will come up with some excuse or another of why my quote from the book does not contradict your insistence that the god "character" lied. I don't need an excuse, the lie is either in the text or it isn't. Why not just read the text? Personally I just think it's all laughable - it's just a folk tale, of course it doesn't stand up to real scrutiny. And, btw, you can't use the book to prove what is said in the book.
You basically argue the side of evil, here. Don't be silly, I'm just reading your book like I would any other.
Who am I going to believe? Professionals or armchair skeptics and critics of organized religion? I love the idea of professional god knowers. Like they know anything anybody else can't know. Like it's a big secret only the few are granted. Come on Phat, this is nonsense. Why not just think for yourself?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: The transcendent experience.[ Yup, that's ALWAYS IT, all the rest is packing. Jesus spoke to you so all the rest is irrelevant detail. In other words it's all about you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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