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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 136 of 257 (866037)
11-04-2019 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:27 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

By what standard is honesty judged?


Reality.

Phat writes:

In what context?


In this venue, the context is the Bible. Are the apologists telling the truth about the Bible?

This is not rocket surgery. I'm just asking you to explain in your own words why Genesis 2-3, for example, doesn't "mean" what it says. If there's any merit at all to your position, why can't you explain it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:27 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 137 of 257 (866039)
11-04-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:31 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

My point of contention with you and jar is that you ruin the story by making the snake out to be a hero and God out to be flawed.


How does that "ruin" the story? Why doesn't conflating the snake with some Satan character in another book ruin the story?

Phat writes:

That isn't Christianity....


Of course not. Why would it be?

The story is much older than Christianity. Why does (your brand of) Christianity get to mangle the story for its own purposes?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 1:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 257 (866040)
11-04-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by jar
11-04-2019 12:30 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
God is not made up in my belief, though. He is very real to me. They have not disproved people's sacred beliefs yet. They have, however, exposed Christian nationalism as a farce.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 12:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 2:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 257 (866041)
11-04-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
11-04-2019 12:47 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
The story is much older than Christianity.
Which story? The story i read has God at the very beginning and has Jesus there too. What story are you referring to? The human story?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 1:11 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 140 of 257 (866042)
11-04-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 1:01 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

Which story?


Duh. The story we're talking about. The story of the snake.

Phat writes:

The story i read has God at the very beginning and has Jesus there too.


That's not "a" story. That's two entirely separate stories. The part about Jesus being there at the beginning is made-up apologetics. It's what you're supposedly trying to defend here. It is not a foregone conclusion.

Phat writes:

What story are you referring to? The human story?


If you're going to claim to be honest, at least read the post you're replying to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 1:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 3:33 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 141 of 257 (866047)
11-04-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 1:00 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:

God is not made up in my belief, though. He is very real to me.

That's fine Phat, but that is YOUR God. The thread is about Apologists.

What does the evidence show Phat?

Look at the Bible and try to count how man different and mutually exclusive gods are found. The God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and the God of Exodus are all mutually exclusive.

The God of Genesis 1 ia apart, aloof and has no contact at all with the things created.

The God of Genesis 2&3 is more the feudal lord, powerful and demanding but also approachable and very human.

The God of Exodus is the voice from off camera, something that cannot even be looked upon and where you have to take your shoes off just to listen.

Each has entirely different senses of morality, different personalities, different mannerisms, different patterns of morality.

What evidence shows they are not each "simply made up"?

How is YOUR God more real than the Gods above?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 1:00 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 3:13 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 257 (866050)
11-04-2019 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jar
11-04-2019 2:42 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
I see your argument. One thing that you claim, and yet that I would challenge, is why these "mutually exclusive" gods may not still be referring to the same One?

As I have mentioned before, IF God exists, (which I believe He does) and IF the God who exists is the one mentioned by Jesus as "His Father". this God is quite capable of morphing into the consciousness of truth-seekers throughout known reality. Why must you always break down the Bible according to your pet theory (based on evidence, of course) that people are simply storytellers relegating tales around a campfire on a cold, late night? This night could be 5000 years ago, among illiterate goat herders. This late-night could be among a group of Kurds, abandoned by what they thought was their Christian Ally. Each group may call God by a different name. Each God may have characteristics inherent within the cultural background of that group. Yet there is no reason to act like a detached and dispassionate sociologist and analyze the God characters as if they were simply mentioned in a series of books. My point is that GOD if GOD exists, wants to relate to humans. You would rightly ask how I could make such an assertion without resorting to what Phat wants the book to say and what the apologists have seized and continue to sell. I can respect your question. I indeed do believe that the God in my head (and hopefully heart) is the real one. (One) Bart Campolo and his Father had a public discussion on how they reconcile being an evangelical Father and an Atheist Son without fighting or becoming distant.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 2:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 5:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 257 (866051)
11-04-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
11-04-2019 1:11 PM


Snakes & Snails & Puppy Dog Tails
ringo writes:

Duh. The story we're talking about. The story of the snake.

Oh, right. I was challenging you on the characters mentioned. You claim that the apologists make up explanations of the book. All I am saying is that most book critics whom I have read don't see the snake and the God character quite as you see them. You can claim that the book defends itself and that all of the apologists somehow fail to see what to you is so obvious. I am simply agreeing with those who share a love of the stories and who claim to have an overall insight into the Author(or authors, editors, and redactors) behind the stories. None of us know what was going through the mind of the first goat herder to tell a story. What we do know is that the stories were accepted by humanity and retold many times throughout the years.
[qs=ringo]The part about Jesus being there at the beginning is made-up apologetics.[/s] Not according to the gospel of John. It clearly says that God was in the beginning and the Word was with God and was God. He was with God in the beginning. Perhaps you could argue that this clearly does not mean Jesus, but who then would it mean? You? I? The author? You seem to have a problem with anything that is believed as if it were made up. Do you get answers from the ducks? Did you make up your own answers? Is that not a belief? The Ducks simply help calm your mind to receive the answers. Snakes are not usually calming influences which is why I find your conclusion that this snake told the truth puzzling unless you are simply defending what is plainly written. In which case I would ask you why you don't relate to the god character and relate more to the snake of whom it was told
Gen 3:14-15 writes:

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:

"Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
NKJV


Now, to be fair, we can attempt to find an answer why this God character would be mad at the snake which allegedly told the truth. We could then tie the snake's purpose in with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and claim that the snake was simply God's messenger to deliver the knowledge of good and evil to humanity. In that case, perhaps the analogy does speak the truth. But to say that the God character lied is quibbling with semantics. the apologists have a good explanation that it was spiritual death. This is also supportable by the fact that the God character cursed the snake for what it said. (or did). this leads to the question of what type of plot device the snake represented, which type of plot device this God character represents, and whether or not the authors themselves were early humanist apologists attempting to explain a large, unknown, and scary world. I submit that everyone searches for a God character to be real. I would also submit that we don't simply create Gods to serve us, do we? If so, we really did eat that fruit and we humans really do have the audacity to think we ourselves are our own God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 1:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 11-05-2019 11:06 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7129
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 144 of 257 (866052)
11-04-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 11:32 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

No. But you are too damn impatient. You think you have it all figured out. I am 60, and I learn slowly yet thoroughly.

I don't have it figured out, but I have figured out that the last couple of thousand years of religious thinking is bullshit.

Do you think you can find anything of value just trawling the internet looking for some egit that says something you agree with of find useful? These people know no more than you. You seem to be spending all of your spare time listening to this crap whilst not answering the questions you have yourself.

Why do you avoid the snake problem and the birth problem? Why can't you answer them?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:32 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 4:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 257 (866053)
11-04-2019 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Tangle
11-04-2019 3:40 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
There is no birth problem.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2019 3:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2019 5:45 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7129
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 146 of 257 (866056)
11-04-2019 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 4:53 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

There is no birth problem.

So you think that where you're born doesn't determine what you believe?

I guess you've given up on the snake.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 4:53 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 11-04-2019 7:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 147 of 257 (866057)
11-04-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 3:13 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:

One thing that you claim, and yet that I would challenge, is why these "mutually exclusive" gods may not still be referring to the same One?

Come on Phat; they are "mutually exclusive". I pointed to the supporting evidence in the very post you are responding to.

One God has no interaction with any of the creation.

One God is very human and walks and talks with the creation.

One God is distant and non-corporeal and it is death to even look at it.

Three entirely different beliefs and descriptions.

Each author wrote about the God the author imagined and marketed.

The point is that EVERY God or god that we can describe is simply the product of our imagination. GOD, if GOD exists is not the God found in the Bible or Qu'ran or Tanakh or Eight Fold Path or the Vedas or the Book of the Dead or the Roman or Greek or German or Celtic or Norse sagas.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 3:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-05-2019 12:05 AM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 148 of 257 (866061)
11-04-2019 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Tangle
11-04-2019 5:45 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
So you think that where you're born doesn't determine what you believe?

Of course!

He reaches out, no matter where in the world you may live. He doesn’t wait for you to explore your heart. He doesn’t call waiting for you to answer. He chooses you.

He reaches out with his noodley appendage and throttles His chosen ones’ minds adding both enlightenment and a spicy marinara.

In praise of His Noodleyness, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (May Parmesan be upon Him),

R’Amen.

I guess you've given up on the snake.

The squiggly snake was but a manifestation of The Most Ancient of Noodles.

He had throttled the brains of Eve infusing her mind with His Holy Enlightenment and a ladle of savory Marinara. She then did reject the lies of the usurper and she then knew the creator of man and midget, the giver of pasta, the simmerer of sauce, from age to holy age.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2019 5:45 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 11-05-2019 6:28 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 149 of 257 (866064)
11-05-2019 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by jar
11-04-2019 5:52 PM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
The point is that EVERY God or god that we can describe is simply the product of our imagination. GOD, if GOD exists is not the God found in the Bible or Qu'ran or Tanakh or Eight Fold Path or the Vedas or the Book of the Dead or the Roman or Greek or German or Celtic or Norse sagas.
Pathetic. How can you call yourself a believer? You laugh at the ones who claim to have witnessed the supernatural only because your mind has never been there.

You will see, however.

I can learn nothing more from any of you.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 5:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2019 3:47 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 154 by jar, posted 11-05-2019 7:18 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 157 by Theodoric, posted 11-05-2019 9:59 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7129
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 150 of 257 (866065)
11-05-2019 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Thugpreacha
11-05-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:

You will see, however.


Now that was pure Faith talking. The world is ending, you're going to hell. The cries of the deluded that know they have lost the argument and are forced to fall back on threat and nonsensical dogma for hundreds of years.

I can learn nothing more from any of you.

You've learned nothing from us. You can't, you know what we say is wrong before we say it even when we're trying to tell you stuff about ourselves. You can't see past your beliefs.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-05-2019 12:05 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-05-2019 6:01 AM Tangle has responded

  
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