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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Depends on what Phat had in mind when he said it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
He clearly intended to insult atheists. That's a logical fallacy right there. Even if all atheists are pansies, that doesn't strengthen his argument. Depends on what Phat had in mind when he said it."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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I'm certainly not a pansy. I'm more a Purple Dawn Camellia.
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I had no idea that "pansy" was the offensive word I used. I assumed it was "street thuggery". To me, a pansy is simply a wimp--a weak-minded person. And wimp is perfectly acceptable in society...there is even a children's book called "Diary of a Wimp". If it offends anyone, I apologize.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: No, but it expresses my emotion. Atheists have no more right to be activists than they claim Christians do. The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away---which in my opinion will lead to the judgment of civilization. Not that it wouldn't happen anyway. He clearly intended to insult atheists. That's a logical fallacy right there. Even if all atheists are pansies, that doesn't strengthen his argument. jar, it is really simple. Accept Jesus Christ. CS Lewis expresses it well in Mere Christianity. Your advice to throw Him away will do more harm than good. That is why I oppose nearly everything you stand for. Your liberal watered-down humanist version of Christianity is a threat to the original message of accepting Christ. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What has that got to do with anything? I'm trying to get you to address the issues, not the personalities.
Atheists have no more right to be activists than they claim Christians do. Phat writes:
I have no idea who that is. See above. The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away...."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar, it is really simple. Accept Jesus Christ. Again, that is another carny spiel with no meaning. Sounds good but is utterly meaningless and worthless. It's another handy way to avoid actually thinking. Jesus said that to accept him meant to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick and suffer the little children. Maybe those points have been mentioned before. You claim I advocate a watered down humanist version of Christianity yet Jesus says that we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick and suffer the little children. That certainly seems humanist. Jesus does not say "I will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick and suffer the little children." Jesus says YOU should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick and suffer the little children. Only humans can do it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I have no problem with that. My problem is that you dont see the need to die to self and accept Christ. In fact, you ask again and yet again how it is done. Nobody can explain to a man how to walk. They either know how to do it or they dont.
Your stumbling block is in refusing to believe in what seems irrational to begin with. In addition, you have been fed the propaganda that Biblical Christianity is a giant con job. And you believe it. In fact you even went so far as to redefine your own. Lewis explains the whole situation. Perhaps you can comment on why you think he is wrong and/or dishonest (since you claim that I have yet to produce one honest apologist). You are a stubborn one. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
The Four Horsemen are educating an entire generation of impressionable college students to throw religion away....ringo writes:
This explains it I have no idea who that is. Introducing the Four Horsemen:
quote:Even though it is said that atheism is a distinct minority within culture, these men have made clever arguments...some of which I see repeated by some of you here. They are changing the minds of many many people, particularly young people. It is in our opinion a sign of the great change sweeping through humanity. Tangle sees it as a good thing, and I am not in favor of censorship. Let the Four Horsemen be heard. The Christian Apologists need to be honest and have strong integrity with which to defend the faith against such an onslaught. For it is an attack inspired by no less than Satan himself. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I also don't care who it is. I wish you'd just address what I post. This explains it"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: My problem is that you dont see the need to die to self and accept Christ. Yet more totally meaningless feel good carny spiel.
Phat writes: Nobody can explain to a man how to walk. Of course people teach folk how to walk; in fact there is a whole profession who's sole job is teaching folk how to walk and talk and even parents that teach kids how to go potty.
Phat writes: In addition, you have been fed the propaganda that Biblical Christianity is a giant con job. And you believe it. No Phat, I do what the Bible says we should do; to know them by their fruits. It is not any propaganda, I simply observe the behavior of those who claim to be "Biblical Christians". Have you ever actually read Lewis Phat? You should know by now that I have. Who is Emeth and what happens to him? Are you sure you want to try to use Lewis against someone who has read ALL of Lewis; both CS and Carroll. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin Edited by jar, : tech ----> teach Edited by jar, : no k in now
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Emeth-Wiki OK I looked it up. You are right. Good job and a good defense of my accusations. I never would have believed that Lewis would say such stuff after reading Mere Christianity, but you won this point quite handily. There might be hope for both of us yet.
Wiki writes: OK jar, you win. You have successfully defended your unorthodox Theology and I cant argue against it any more without taking on Lewis, which I wont do. Maybe I should just drop this argument. (Lewis himself commented) I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ.[3] Lewis argues that this view can be derived[3] from the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:34-40, from Paul's speech to the Athenians in Acts 17:23: "What you now worship as something unknown, I am going to proclaim to you", and from 1 Timothy 4:10: "God, the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (all references NIV). Lewis encountered[3] at least one contradiction to this idea in Romans 10:14: "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (TNIV). This is consistent with Paul's doctrine that though God is already with the pagans, they still need to see him revealed. Lewis, however, replied with 1 Corinthians 1:12-13: "One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' -- Is Christ divided?" (TNIV), which he interpreted as indicating the sameness of God regardless of his context.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You need to understand Mere Christianity in context. It is a collection of BBC radio broadcasts made between 1941 and 1944. The goal was quite frankly propaganda; an attempt to instill a sense of communion and endurance during a really dark and depressing time.
But CS Lewis wrote lots; simply doing a Cliff's Notes survey misses so much of what he actually did contribute. Phat, you certainly don't believe it but my theology really is nowhere near unfounded, unorthodox or unique. What it is is called "To Be Avoided" by the CCoI. Edited by jar, : left out unorthodox
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
CS Lewis wrote lots; simply doing a Cliff's Notes survey misses so much of what he actually did contribute. Would you call him an honest apologist> Ringo is waiting for one...though I have no idea why he has rejected the ones I have presented so far. I think he defines honesty as always an evidenced fact rather than a belief. Perhaps he thinks that I think as he does, but I don't. I accept unevidenced beliefs to a limited degree when I have had subjective experiences that validate them for me. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
He really is not an Apologist; he does not try to present reasons that what the Bible actually says is not what it means. That's the big difference. He accepts that the Bible does say what it actually says, that it is a totally human product without some single purpose or theme and each story reflects the beliefs of the author, the authors mythos and milieu.
He is an Anglican product just as JRR Tolkien is a Roman Catholic product.
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