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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Theodoric
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Posts: 6883
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 361 of 472 (867353)
11-23-2019 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 1:57 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
You don't enter heaven smoking cigarettes, doing recreational drugs, perusing Penthouse, and/or polishing your 57 chevy and other household idols.

How do you know this? I have read you bible many times, where does it say this?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 1:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:18 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6883
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 362 of 472 (867354)
11-23-2019 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Answer the question. Do you think misrepresenting what your bible says makes you a better person?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 6:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:04 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 363 of 472 (867355)
11-23-2019 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by jar
11-23-2019 7:29 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
jar writes:

I do this because I actually respect the Bible and do not try to create either the fantasy I want or the God I desire.

It is the Apologists who create the fantasies and misrepresent what is actually written in the Bible.

Even CS Lewis supports my argument concerning the need for a transformation. Whatever club you claim to belong to, your ideas are in fact fantasy. You will never get into Heaven simply by rolling up your sleeves and working at the local food bank. Sorry. I have been to a lot of churches. Of the many people I have met, none think like you do or even close. They all believe similar to what I have been taught. If I am guilty of making up a fantasy, the majority of Christianity is guilty as well, including most of the well-known names at the Chicago Statement. I would rather go with them than with the liberal secular humanists that claim to be Christians yet don't believe in anything but their own altruistic efforts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 7:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 9:11 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 364 of 472 (867356)
11-23-2019 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Theodoric
11-23-2019 8:00 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
It is not I who claim to be a better person. None of us are any better than anybody else. It seems to me that you have your own ideas of what God should be like and, like jar, shun the Christianity I was taught. It is you who don't understand the Bible.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2019 8:00 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:24 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 365 of 472 (867357)
11-23-2019 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 9:02 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

I would rather go with them than with the liberal secular humanists that claim to be Christians yet don't believe in anything but their own altruistic efforts.

And so once again, like any Apologist, you simply misrepresent what I have said as well as what the Bible says.

The issue is not what anyone believes, it was to test the Apologists and so far no one has presented any evidence that the Apologist actually acknowledge what is written in the Bible without instead creating the Bible and God in their image.

You are free to follow them but so far you have not offered any support for any of them; the Apologists have failed EVERY test so far.

Phat writes:

Even CS Lewis supports my argument concerning the need for a transformation.

And transformation is not shown by shouting Lord Lord but by the fruits produced. And, of course, that simply has NOTHING to do with the topic.

Do you have an Apologist who actually supports the fact that what is actually written in the Bible is actually what is written in the Bible without creating so excuse to claim that it doesn't really mean what is written in the Bible?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:02 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:26 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 366 of 472 (867358)
11-23-2019 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Theodoric
11-23-2019 7:59 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
I have read your bible many times, where does it say this?

We can start with Romans 12:2. One must be transformed by the renewing of their minds.

Also mentioned in this article:
THE BIBLICAL UNDERSTANDING OF SPIRITUALITY

and to be honest, I can't believe that people even question the need to change. What on earth are you thinking? That God will simply accept your little pompous ass into His house as is? Next thing we know, you will be lobbying for His job! And you know, I've been thinking about your liberal hissy fit about my abhorrent statement earlier concerning God selecting whom He so chooses. Would you dare think He would choose me? No? See, you too judge who is worthy and who isn't. The difference is, liberals base their judgment on secular humanist equality whereas conservatives are more authoritarian. I'm guessing God is somewhere in the middle of all that.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2019 7:59 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2019 11:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 367 of 472 (867359)
11-23-2019 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by jar
11-23-2019 9:11 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
jar writes:

Do you have an Apologist who actually supports the fact that what is actually written in the Bible is actually what is written in the Bible without creating so excuse to claim that it doesn't really mean what is written in the Bible?

No, and there is a reason you won't find one. We share a common interpretation of what the bible means. You stick on what it says, yet have no clue of a Jesus that existed before the book was written. You were taught to critically examine what was and is said. We were initially taught by the Rhema Word...the obviousness of what God means. We don't simply follow apologists like sheeple. We would come to the same conclusions anyway, through studying it ourselves. The reason we don't trust those of you who insist that what is written is what is logically implied is because nobody studies it that way except secular scholars.
1 Corinthians 2:14 writes:

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 9:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 7:18 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6883
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 368 of 472 (867360)
11-23-2019 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 9:18 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Nothing here has anything to do with cigarettes, drugs, penthouse, or chevys, or adopted children for that matter. When you can support your preaching with actual words in your bible I might consider at least listening.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:18 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:16 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 369 of 472 (867363)
11-24-2019 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Theodoric
11-23-2019 11:31 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
I just mentioned the scripture in Message 367. The natural man(or skeptic or atheist or agnostic) can't even wrap their mind around a living God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Theodoric, posted 11-23-2019 11:31 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2019 7:07 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 372 by NosyNed, posted 11-24-2019 7:51 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 370 of 472 (867364)
11-24-2019 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 4:16 AM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

The natural man(or skeptic or atheist or agnostic) can't even wrap their mind around a living God.

Even? You're kidding. Wtf is a living god?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:16 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 371 of 472 (867365)
11-24-2019 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 9:26 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

The reason we don't trust those of you who insist that what is written is what is logically implied is because nobody studies it that way except secular scholars.

What you and EVERY Apologist does is make up ways to deny what is actually written in the Bible, to try to find some way to convince yourselves that it is not the work of men, that is was God Breathed, that there really is some Rhema Word...the obviousness of what God means despite the evidence found in the Biblical descriptions of God found in the Bible that shows there is no Rhema Word...the obviousness of what God means.

You worship and market the God YOU and the Apologists create.

AbE:

Phat you started this thread and the topic is "Testing The Christian Apologists".

The only test you have shown so far at BEST might be an appeal to popularity in support of the Apologists. You have not shown a single example of an Apologist who actually believes the Bible says what is actually written in the Bible.

The fail that test.

Edited by jar, : see AbE;


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:26 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 372 of 472 (867367)
11-24-2019 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 4:16 AM


Looking on
Those of us who aren't all that interested find it interesting that some of you supply biblical quotes and some of you don't

We like to think we can actually read but some of you say we shouldn't actually read the bible we should just make s*** up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:16 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 373 of 472 (867369)
11-24-2019 8:52 AM


the test that the Apologists fail
The need for Apologists is only created by the desire of the Biblical inerrantists to justify the fantasy they have created that the Bible is a single book with a single purpose with a single author and that it is all about Jesus.

Well, that's patently nonsense and so the Apologist makes stuff up to explain away the realities of what is and was written.

The Jews understood that scripture is a collection of independent scroll; each a separate story and each meant to serve an internal and unique purpose. The Jewish Canon or TaNaKh is grouped into several assemblies; the TaNaKh is broken down into three section, the Torah which is History and Laws, the Nevi'im which is the Prophets and it has two sections, the Major and Minor Prophets and finally Ketuvim which are the Writings.

The New Testament likewise is not a single unit but rather an almost parallel arrangement with the Gospels and Acts which are Histories, the Epistles that are Inter-Office Memos and the outlier Revelation that is simply strange.

The actual content of each section really depends on which Christian Canon is examined because they ALL contain some differences. If you look at the Table found in Canons of the Various Christian Traditions you can get some idea of just how much variety really exists within Club Christian.

The whole and sole purpose of Apologists is to create uniformity and simplicity where none really exists; to make Christianity an easy choice instead of something that really takes effort.

The stories that make up any of the various Canons evolved over time and each story reflects the understanding, the purpose and the goals of the particular era and audience. They were not written for a audience thousands of years later even though they can have value and meaning to the readers today. BUT we need to look through their eyes, not our own.

The earliest authors had no problems with their God being one of many Gods or their God being quite human with human fallacies and failures and weaknesses. Later authors imagined a overarching God that was perfect and powerful but aloof and apart. There were other Gods imagined, the jealous God found in the Exodus story that is simply a Character in the folk tale of how the Hebrews became a people separate and the God on WalkAbout trying to find out if the rumors he'd heard were true.

Other sections outline current events and the politics and customs of both the time and social organizations for a loose confederacy of tribes to civil wars between different associations of tribes to the founding of theocracies and of monarchies, of dynastic squabbles and family feuds.

There are sections outlining the Laws and social obligations of particular eras or locales or professions.

There are collections of Bumper Sticker slogans.

This carries on into the New Testament with recounting of the history surrounding the person called Jesus and then on the evolution of the new Jewish Jesus sect evolving into a new and separate religion.

Throughout all of it though is the simple fact that each writing was meant for the immediate audience and it's purpose was relevant to that audience and reflecting the desires of that author.

Edited by jar, : on ---> one


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by GDR, posted 11-24-2019 10:29 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 12:32 PM jar has responded
 Message 389 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 3:28 PM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 374 of 472 (867371)
11-24-2019 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
11-24-2019 8:52 AM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Good post jar. It is semantics but I think rather than saying that there were different gods it is more accurate to say that there were different understandings about the nature of God and how that nature was to impact their lives. Throughout the Bible we see a progressive understanding of the nature of God from the punitive and angry understanding in books like Numbers etc, to the more loving suffering servant in Isaiah. The Israel story climaxes in Jesus where we are told things such as that we are to love our enemies instead of annihilating them.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 8:52 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 375 of 472 (867380)
11-24-2019 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
11-24-2019 8:52 AM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
The earliest authors had no problems with their God being one of many Gods or their God being quite human with human fallacies

And just who might these "earliest authors" be? A bunch of heretics or who knows what off-the-wall sources you are referencing?. Everything I've read back to the beginning knows the God of Christianity is the ONE God known by the Jews, THE JEWS TO WHOM GOD GAVE THE BOOK OF GENESIS THROUGH MOSES.

The stories did NOT "evolve," only incompetent unspiritual readers or damned heretics would say such a thing. And the fcct that the writings are on separate scrolls is merely a practical matter: scrolls are only a certain size, especially if they are on vellum which is animal skin.

Of course the writings are aimed at particular audiences. We all know that. Matthew wrote with the Jews in mind, so did the Letter to the Hebrews, emphasizing Jewish traditions but telling the SAME GOSPEL STORY KNOWN TO ALL using concepts the Jews would understand best. Luke wrote to the Greek speaking world in general where the more specific Jewish concepts would not have been understood as well. BUT IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME ACCOUNT. It's INANE to break it all up as you do, just plain MORONIC. When missionaries translate the Byble for various tribal peoples they use terms that reflect the cultural meaning of the concepts they want to get across. If it is done correctly and sensitively THIS DOES NOT AFFECT THE MESSAGE GIVEN

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 8:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 12:44 PM Faith has responded

  
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