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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 376 of 472 (867381)
11-24-2019 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
11-24-2019 12:32 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Faith writes:

And just who might these "earliest authors" be?

We don't have a clue who most of the authors of the stories that are included in the different Bibles might be, and that's true even when it comes to much of the New Testament. We know that the authors of Acts, Luke and Matthew either repeated material found in earlier works or stories told by anonymous sources. We find a high probability that Paul actually wrote many of the Epistle attributed to him but not all. There is no clue who wrote either Revelations or the Gospel of John.

The evidence that the stories evolved is firm, concrete and conclusive. Some examples are the two different Creation tales, the two different Flood fables, the evolving tale of Paul's Conversion (outlined in Message 401) and The evolution of the Great Commission over time. over time and repetition.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 12:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 12:48 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 377 of 472 (867383)
11-24-2019 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by jar
11-24-2019 12:44 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
You are aping some upstart modern revisionists. We know who wrote the Byble accounts and we've known since the very beginning. Yes some of them took material from others, why not? Their aim was to present the llfe and teachings of Jesus Christ to different audiences and why not use what was already available, in fcct it helps their cause. Your stuff is heretical revisionism by unbelievers who have no true understanding of the Byble.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 12:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 12:52 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 378 of 472 (867384)
11-24-2019 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Faith
11-24-2019 12:48 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Yet what I post reflects what is actually written instead of the fiction you and the Apologists create and worship.

I am not aping anyone but rather actually reporting the reality of what is written and not the fantasy.

See Message 401 and The evolution of the Great Commission over time. where the actual Bible writings are quoted and referenced.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 12:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:33 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 379 of 472 (867391)
11-24-2019 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 2:01 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

Well, He might let you liberals in just to test (and piss off) some of the conservatives...


Who are you trying to kid? There won't be any conservatives there.

Phat writes:

... but I promise you He won't let Satan and the demons chill in there.


That promise is completely worthless.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 2:01 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 380 of 472 (867392)
11-24-2019 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

You then attack the majority of Christianity and Christian thought and belief, labeling them as charlatans, hucksters, and weavers of fantasy.


Still waiting for you to defend the apologist fantasies.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 6:28 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 381 of 472 (867393)
11-24-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
double post

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 6:28 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 382 of 472 (867395)
11-24-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 9:04 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

It seems to me that you have your own ideas of what God should be like and, like jar, shun the Christianity I was taught. It is you who don't understand the Bible.


The Christianity that you were taught is not from the Bible, as you have been shown oh so many times.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 9:04 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 383 of 472 (867397)
11-24-2019 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by jar
11-24-2019 12:52 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Since your "reality" contradicts two thousand years of the deep spiritual theology of believers, your "reality" is nothing but invented bullcrap.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 12:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 1:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 384 of 472 (867399)
11-24-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by ringo
11-24-2019 1:24 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Thugs has not said anything that contradicts the TRVE meaning of the Byble but your lltrrallst context-blind revisionism does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:43 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 385 of 472 (867400)
11-24-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
11-24-2019 1:33 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Faith writes:

Since your "reality" contradicts two thousand years of the deep spiritual theology of believers, your "reality" is nothing but invented bullcrap.

Interesting since my reality is what is actually written in the Bible stories.

Have you ever read the Bible Faith?

Did you even read Message 401 and The evolution of the Great Commission over time. Faith?

You know that folk can check to see if what I post really is what is actually written in the Bible that you call "nothing but invented bullcrap".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 386 of 472 (867401)
11-24-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Faith
11-24-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Faith writes:

Thugs has not said anything that contradicts the TRVE meaning of the Byble...


What you call the "TRUE" meaning of the Bible is a lie. It is clear what the Bible actually says.

Faith writes:

...your lltrrallst context-blind revisionism does.


The context of Genesis is not Romans.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 387 of 472 (867402)
11-24-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by ringo
11-24-2019 1:43 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Oh yes indeed the context of Geneis IS Romans and Genesis is the context of Romans in turn. That's what you concretizing context-blind lltralists don't get.

But really the worst thing you all do is put yourself about two thousand years of honest Byble exegetes. That is really dlsgvsting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:13 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 388 of 472 (867407)
11-24-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
11-24-2019 1:51 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Faith writes:

Oh yes indeed the context of Geneis IS Romans and Genesis is the context of Romans in turn.


No more than Treasure Island is the context of The Grapes of Wrath. If you claim it is, you have to back up that claim.

Faith writes:

But really the worst thing you all do is put yourself about two thousand years of honest Byble exegetes.


I put the text ahead of your claims. I make no claims except what the text actually says.

And we all know that your claims about two thousand years of lockstep agreement by all scholars is nonsense.

Edited by ringo, : SpellIng.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 3:37 PM ringo has responded
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 3:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 389 of 472 (867411)
11-24-2019 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
11-24-2019 8:52 AM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
I just woke up and am preparing for my day. Believe it or not, our arguments here at EvC sometimes come to mind as I pray in the morning. I have no doubt that the God whom I pray to and commune with through prayer is the right God if any of them are. What's funny, however, is that when I get around to praying for EvC and remembering some of our arguments, He basically tells me to consider your positions. Which goes against my very nature. But I do listen. So keeping that in mind, let's start my daily rant.

To begin with, how are jar and ringos ideas any different from secular humanism?

ringo isn't even a believer...he claims that God and Jesus are limited as characters in the book. Even if this were true, it essentially reduces the argument to who most closely follows the book, which is irrelevant to me. I follow the Spirit. Critics can challenge which Spirit I am following, but they won't impress me by trying to teach me the book. I can read it for myself and decide for myself what it means to me. If I am in a club or cult of deluded people, so be it. I don't agree with this all-inclusive secular humanist roll up your sleeves non-supernatural Jesus anyway. If it so happens that the Jesus described by unbeliever ringo and eccentric critic jar is real, I suppose I lose.

And let me make it clear that I agree with them when they say that Jesus' main message was to feed, clothe, comfort and encourage other humans...no matter who they are and no matter what they believe. I fully support that and do it when I can. What I won't accept is the idea that there is no such thing as the supernatural, that Jesus was merely a human example and that God (GOD) is unknowable and not as anyone in any belief adequately expresses.

This whole idea that Christianity is dishonest by-and-large and morally bankrupt is not true in my experience. I know a lot more flesh and blood Christians in Denver than I do critics on EvC.
We likely feed and clothe more people than anyone suspects.

Finally, I am learning to tolerate other beliefs, as God wants me to do, so I won't accuse jar off not being a Christian--only because he himself says that whoever claims to be a Christian is in his mind a Christian. So I will give him that same benefit of the doubt.

ringo, on the other hand, is nothing more than argumentative. I really could care less what he argues because it is irrelevant to me whether his argument is logical since it is a universal argument coming from an unbeliever describing what he himself claims is but a character in a book. I give his character no more weight than I would give long John Silver, and I never listen to that pirate either.

jar writes:

The whole and sole purpose of Apologists is to create uniformity and simplicity where none really exists; to make Christianity an easy choice instead of something that really takes effort.

I know its hard work. Try being blind as I currently am in one eye. I may have to go on disability. I am wise enough to know that God won't m,magically heal me, though I pray He eventually does, of course. This experience has made me stronger as I am now more empathetic to blind people, as well as disabled people in general. I used to honestly consider them a bit of a bother, as they expected help from everyone but I too will be right there with them, so I learned something.

The earliest authors had no problems with their God being one of many Gods or their God being quite human with human fallacies and failures and weaknesses.
The earliest authors did not know God to begin with. Only the prophets were touched by the Spirit. With a few exceptions..

This carries on into the New Testament with recounting of the history surrounding the person called Jesus and then on the evolution of the new Jewish Jesus sect evolving into a new and separate religion.
The problem I have with your Theology is that you think nobody needs to change when the evidence shows that people who had encounters with Jesus id change or were changed. This whole idea that everyone is "saved" is your own worthless marketing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 8:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 3:44 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 390 of 472 (867412)
11-24-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by ringo
11-24-2019 2:13 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
ringo,to Faith writes:

I put the text ahead of your claims. I make no claims except what the text actually says.

You don't even believe that the character exists outside of the book. So who really cares if you can prove that the text says what it says, which you can, and your claim that it means what it says, which is a lie.
Why should the book you use be anything special to me? It is the character in the book that lives now and lived before the book was even written whom I listen to. Critics can call it a fantasy wish, but what you all are peddling is watered down Christian secular humanism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by ringo, posted 11-25-2019 11:13 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 406 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2019 11:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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