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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 391 of 472 (867413)
11-24-2019 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by ringo
11-24-2019 2:13 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
You can't put the text above them, all you can do is put your own reading of the text above theirs and that's where you are arrogant as well as context-blind.

I never said anything about "lockstep" -- it's overall consensus over the centuries. If the reader has the Holy Spirit he'll understand the text the way others who have the Holy Spirit understand the text. Not exactly but just about.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 392 of 472 (867415)
11-24-2019 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 3:28 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Phat writes:

The problem I have with your Theology is that you think nobody needs to change when the evidence shows that people who had encounters with Jesus id change or were changed.

There has been no evidence presented that people get transformed and even if there had been that is irrelevant to the topic which is " Testing The Christian Apologists".

Who created the topic?

Where is there evidence that the Apologists pass any test?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 3:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:01 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 393 of 472 (867420)
11-24-2019 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by jar
11-24-2019 3:44 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
The Apostle Paul was arguably one of the first apologists. His arguments seem pretty solid to me. And I dont need evidence. Your argument wont change a lot of Christian minds. What it will do is damage everybody else who reads it, for they will conclude as you do---that Mainstream Christianity is a con, a scam, and dishonest.

Which is sad. You are inadvertently marketing Christianity to be nothing more than a secular humanist do-good club. You are pushing your beliefs onto the fence sitters. To throw God away. To throw Jesus away. To roll up their sleeves and help the community (which is good, by the way) but you are telling them that Christianity is basically a secular belief and is hard work.

Granted that is true, but you have no place to tell people to throw away their belief, just because of you believe that Jesus or God won't help us in life. But you are no dummy. You know that we will get thje woprld that we *want*. You know that the bill will get paid. You know, though I doubt see the big picture--of what the future of America will be like.

Listen to "Humanize Me 207: The future of society with Michael Dowd" on Spreaker.

One of your predictions will likely come true. The CCoI will be one of the biggest threats to global stability. They simply wont stand for the world that you and the secular humanists envision.

They already have guns. Pray they don't get ahold of nukes.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 3:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 4:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 472 (867422)
11-24-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
11-24-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
This does get frustrating! These guys will never change. jar has done more to discredit Christianity than he ever has done to promote it.

And ringo has always demanded Chapter & Verse when it suits him.

I just mentioned the scripture in Message 367. The natural man(or skeptic or atheist or agnostic) can't even wrap their mind around a living God.

That scripture right there supports your claim, Faith. But ringo will likely explain it away if it doesn't support his argument.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 3:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by ringo, posted 11-25-2019 11:27 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 395 of 472 (867423)
11-24-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 4:01 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

None of that has anything to do with the topic and is just another example of you misrepresenting what I post.

You created a topic "Testing The Christian Apologists" and have presented no defense for ANY Apologists.

All of the Christian Apologist fail miserably as examples of what Christianity should be but are great examples of the Carny Midway spiels.

Paul's arguments changed to fit reality as prophesy after prophesy failed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:31 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 396 of 472 (867424)
11-24-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by jar
11-24-2019 4:16 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
jar writes:

All of the Christian Apologist fail miserably as examples of what Christianity should be...

And just who are you to say what Christianity *should be* any more than they or I? I happen to believe that what you market is most certainly not what Christianity should be, apart from your exhortation to feed, clothe, and comfort.
... but are great examples of the Carny Midway spiels.
And just what evidence do you have that mainstream preaching and teaching in any way equates to carny schpiels? At best, you don't like it. Its ok...I dont like your message either. Namely:

jar, in various quotes from Belief Statement writes:

I would say that anyone who professes to be a Christian is a Christian. I never doubt that anyone who says they are a Christian is one.

In other words, God saves everybody.
Why do we need to tell the real Christians from the others? Aren't they all real Christians?
Only if you believe that anyone and everyone can simply become one with no strings attached.
I personally am sure of my belief, but honesty compels me to say I know I could be wrong.
I will agree with that. We wont know 100% untuil after we die, if then.
Santa is, for me, very real. Santa lives inside each of us that carries on his work, that sacrifice hours and knuckles and moments when we could be doing more enjoyable things...
I agree except to sy that I believe in One Holy Spirit and that if there were a spirit of Santa Claus it would in fact be the Holy Spirit
I believe that there is GOD. One true GOD. Religion, whether Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Taoism or Wicca or Satanism or Hinduism or any other form is but a human centric search for that GOD.

Religion is but a Map, not the Territory. It is a human construct and subject to all the limitations, the lack of knowledge, the misconceptions, the contemporary points of view as any other human construct. Christianity is no more GOD than Judaism is. They are but tools used by man to try to understand something that is beyond human comprehension.

The question is, do you believe that Jesus is God? (Gods character) Because without that, God is simply a He, She, or It to you.

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD and that He came down as a human, a man, to be a teacher. But that does not make other religions wrong.

I try not to limit GOD. I see no reason to limit either how GOD can reach out to people or how people can reach out to GOD. You specifically mention Islam and the fact that they do not recognize Jesus as being GOD as though that were some great point. Frankly, I don't see the import. I disagree with them, but that does not make me right or wrong. Neither of us knows, both of us believe.

I will agree with you here, though I don't believe that other people with different beliefs can or should ignore Jesus, especially if He is present at the day of judgment.
I believe that Jesus Christ is GOD incarnate.
Im glad you stated that. It is often hard to get you to say that.

jar writes:

I am a Christian. So that does define those beliefs. But they are defined for me. Others may and should hold different beliefs. It is personal

Then why accuse so many mainstream Christian leaders of being dishonest hucksters? The vast majority whom I've met are honest, in my opinion. They are not trying to con anybody.
As to the difference between belief and knowledge, yes, many folk KNOW, and are usually quick to tell you so. I believe. I personally believe I am right, but I do realize I could be wrong.

As to the whole thread, particularly the title, "Belief Statement".

This was an attempt to put into a short statement something that took over 60 years to experience. Much was left out, far more left out than I included. I really believe the actual Belief Statement is the one you live.

I can't argue with that. My current problem with you is that you are preaching a different Gospel than your own words in your Belief Statement professed. Let's take your admonition to throw God away. You never mentioned that back then. Why do you find it important to preach it now? And finally, why do we need evidence that the apologists are rights? They may or may not be, but they are not dishonest. That evidence is your job. As you said, Belief is personal. Quit attacking mainstream Christianity.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 4:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 4:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 397 of 472 (867426)
11-24-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 4:31 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
Phat writes:

And just who are you to say what Christianity *should be* any more than they or I?

Again you continue to misrepresent what I say. I don't try to say what Christianity should be, I simply point to what the Bible says.

Phat writes:

... but are great examples of the Carny Midway spiels.
And just what evidence do you have that mainstream preaching and teaching in any way equates to carny schpiels? At best, you don't like it. Its ok...I dont like your message either.

I look at what the Apologists say about what the Bible says and compare that to what is actually written in the Bible.

AbE: Phat, you know damn well I have never said you or Faith or the Wiz or anyone else who claimed to be a Christian was not a Christian. Even the Apologists are Christians.

Don't even suggest that I try to define Christianity.

Edited by jar, : fix quote box

Edited by jar, : see AbE


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-25-2019 6:35 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 398 of 472 (867432)
11-25-2019 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by jar
11-24-2019 4:40 PM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
jar writes:

I don't try to say what Christianity should be, I simply point to what the Bible says.


jar, in Message 395
quote:
All of the Christian Apologist fail miserably as examples of what Christianity should be but are great examples of the Carny Midway spiels.

To be fair, I don't accuse you of attempting to define Christianity or what a Christian should be, though you have no basis for the blanket accusation that so many are carny barkers and hucksters. At best you accuse them of making stuff up to support their position. Would you like me to show where you have done the same thing?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 4:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by jar, posted 11-25-2019 7:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 399 of 472 (867433)
11-25-2019 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Thugpreacha
11-25-2019 6:35 AM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
I do not misrepresent what the Bible Actually says or make claims about the Bible that are patently false and refuted by what is actually written.

As long as they are trying to sell the silly notion of Biblical Inerrancy or "God Breathed" or "Single Purpose" or "that Jesus is found in the Old Testament" then yes Phat, they are all simply Carny Sideshow Spiel-men.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-25-2019 6:35 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-25-2019 11:02 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 400 of 472 (867441)
11-25-2019 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 399 by jar
11-25-2019 7:14 AM


Re: the test that the Apologists fail
jar, referring to all Christian Apologists writes:

As long as they are trying to sell the silly notion of Biblical Inerrancy or "God Breathed" or "Single Purpose" or "that Jesus is found in the Old Testament" then yes Phat, they are all simply Carny Sideshow Spiel-men.

I disagree. And I charge that as long as you are trying to suggest that your own silly notions of "throw God away", and "even if Jesus was just a tale told around campfires the message has value" and "Christianity is about what YOU do and not about what He did" and "God lied and the snake told the truth" then you are no better. It may be what you think Christianity should be but the rest of us Christians don't buy it. Your message might sell at an atheists convention but littlewhere else. You can claim to be a believer and it is nobodies business but your own and I respect that you are a Christian. I also am well aware of what the book says.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by jar, posted 11-25-2019 7:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by jar, posted 11-25-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 401 of 472 (867443)
11-25-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 3:37 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

You don't even believe that the character exists outside of the book.


What has that got to do with reading what the book says?

Phat writes:

So who really cares if you can prove that the text says what it says...


The text does say what it says. I don't need to "prove" that. It's a tautology.

Phat writes:

... and your claim that it means what it says, which is a lie.


So back up that accusation. All you've done is run away. If you're going to call me a liar, show us how I'm lying.

Phat writes:

Why should the book you use be anything special to me?


It isn't "the book I use". It's the book you use.

Phat writes:

It is the character in the book that lives now and lived before the book was even written whom I listen to.


Then why don't you just throw the book away? Why do you pay any attention to apologists who try to reconcile the book with the character in your head?

Phat writes:

... what you all are peddling is watered down Christian secular humanism.


I agree that the Christianity dilutes the secular humanism, so let's get rid of the Christianity entirely.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 3:37 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-25-2019 11:25 AM ringo has responded
 Message 413 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-25-2019 2:50 PM ringo has responded
 Message 417 by GDR, posted 11-25-2019 6:29 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 402 of 472 (867444)
11-25-2019 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
11-24-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Faith writes:

... it's overall consensus over the centuries.


It isn't though. That's why there are so many denominations.

Faith writes:

If the reader has the Holy Spirit he'll understand the text the way others who have the Holy Spirit understand the text.


Those who "have the Holy Spirit" display the fruits of the Spirit:
quote:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
not hate, anger, hammering the Caps Lock key, etc.

(By the way, "longsuffering" means patience, not complaining long and loud about how much one is suffering.)


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 3:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 403 of 472 (867445)
11-25-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by ringo
11-25-2019 11:13 AM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
I agree. Let's just throw the book away. May as well read Long John Silver.

It isn't "the book I use". It's the book you use.
How would you like someone coming along and trying to explain to you what Treasure Island really means? With no regard or respect for your interpretation?

You would tell them to get lost unless they made the story any better. What you guys do is make the story into an allegory for humanist community building. Which is fine...just throw the Christianity away. You never use it anyway. And I will keep the charge to go feed, clothe and comfort the community. Many of my fellow Christians already do. And when critics call them carny barkers and conmen, I get offended. I bet we feed more people than your local salvation army or red cross does. What gets the humanists mad is the "Christian" part. They cant stand proselytes.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by ringo, posted 11-25-2019 11:13 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 11-25-2019 11:44 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 408 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 404 of 472 (867446)
11-25-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Thugpreacha
11-24-2019 4:07 PM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

And ringo has always demanded Chapter & Verse when it suits him.


It always suits me. But we know all to well that use use scripture when it suits you and throw it away when it doesn't suit you.

Phat writes:

But ringo will likely explain it away if it doesn't support his argument.


Quoting the text isn't "explaining anything away". Using out-of-context quotes - like you and Faith do - to change what the text says is explaining it away.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 4:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 405 of 472 (867448)
11-25-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by Thugpreacha
11-25-2019 11:25 AM


Re: Trying To Explain To jar once again...
Phat writes:

How would you like someone coming along and trying to explain to you what Treasure Island really means?


I'd react the same way I do when someone comes along and tries to explain to me what the Bible really means. I'd show him where he's wrong.

Phat writes:

With no regard or respect for your interpretation?


Why would I "interpret" Treasure Island? It says what it says.

Have you ever read Treasure Island? Do you make up a "living Long John Silver" who wants to "commune" with you? Doesn't that sound crazy to you?

Phat writes:

You would tell them to get lost unless they made the story any better.


I don't tell people to get lost. I follow them around from thread to thread trying to get them to engage.

Phat writes:

What you guys do is make the story into an allegory for humanist community building.


Not at all. I just acknowledge that the Jesus character understood a thing or two about humanist community building. If you're going to believe that the character is real, that should be your takeaway.

Phat writes:

...just throw the Christianity away. You never use it anyway.


On the contrary, I'm the one who is constantly telling you to use it instead of just bleating, "Lord! Lord!"

Phat writes:

Many of my fellow Christians already do.


Oooh! That's impressive. And I bet many bus drivers drive buses too.

Phat writes:

And when critics call them carny barkers and conmen, I get offended.


Getting offended doesn't accomplish anything. Show how they're wrong.

Phat writes:

I bet we feed more people than your local salvation army or red cross does.


It's not a contest.

Phat writes:

What gets the humanists mad is the "Christian" part.


It seems to me it's the Christians who are getting mad. They don't like having their fairy tale challenged.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-25-2019 11:25 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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