Testing The Christian Apologists

You should not simply accept, rather you should go read what is actually written and admit that what is actually written is what is actually written.

It's God's word Phat, why doesn't speak to you directly? Why do you think it needs lot's of complicated interpretations much of which contradicts itself?Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Again, it not what is written. Its how it is interpreted. The believers whom I know are not flakes. They are Pastors and teachers. They are people who actually do something. They feed, clothe, encourage, and are not paid a lot if anything. They are as intelligent as anyone here at EvC, the main difference being that you guys remain secular and evidence-based. When I observe you as a group and them as a group, I see major differences.When believers get together, there is never much disagreement on what the Bible says nor what it means. That does not make us sheep or zombies...everyone can and does read scriptures for themselves and have full discretion to say to the group or individual what it means to them. This way that you teach---throwing God away, etc...and that we can never know of our salvation until we die...is a secular, evidence-based and liberal view of the Bible not found in many from my group. And then I hear statements from you guys that confirms the differences between us. For example, the whole idea that a person need not change, have a renewed mind, abstain from casual sex, cuss if in the mood, and liberal lovey-dovey group hug type of "love" vs the deeper more somber kind that I have seen all reinforces my preferred belief. I have no problem with a woman Priest, nor even a woman "gay" one, but she sure as St.Peter better be loving God more than her significant other or she is not cut out for agape love..she is still carnal. And you all don't see problems with this liberal global lovefest. It's fake. Period. That my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Correct, and when those Pastors and teachers misrepresent what is actually written and market interpretations that are the exact opposite of what is written then they are simply carny sideshow pitchmen creating the Bible and God in their image.Phat, I am a believer. The difference is that I believe what is written in the Bible is what is actually written in the Bible and not what I wish had been written.Also once again you are simply misrepresenting what any of us have said and so creating the dichotomy in YOUR image. You are once again falling back on utterly meaningless and fanciful word sald as though it had any relation to what we have said or believe.It is just another example of the total disconnect from reality displayed by what you call "Mainstrean Christianity".And you still have not presented any evidence that you test the Christian Apologists.

That's where you go wrong. You should't be pondering how many cartwheels and backflips it takes to reconcile the Bible with your beliefs. It doesn't really matter why God lied. What you need to reconcile with your beliefs is the fact that He did lie. Well no, we can't debate that at all because you keep refusing to bring anything resembling an argument.

You say you are a believer. Why is it then that every other believer I have ever run across can tell me without hesitation what Jesus means to them---fondly, reverently, and acting as if they are talking of a literal family friend....whereas I ask you the same question and you go "Huh? What does that even mean?" like some pedantic professor seeking validation for his pet theory on literary interpretation??Don't you see how different you are? Instead of your assertion that it is likely them being a carny sideshow, it may well be you who never quite understood how GOD could become knowable (to a degree) to humans? Those damn Baltimore Masters with their Socratic teaching method combined with innate skepticism poisoned your whole ability to believe anything apart from the number of stars you saw through a telescope. It's ok though. Sure, Jimmy you *are* a believer! Now run along and go help old Mrs. McAlistair reach that jar of pickles high on the shelf! The Heavenly Father loves little boys who mind their manners, tow the line on the honor system, and don't check their brains at the door as the rest of these spoiled entitled fantasy-driven Americans do.

I found another great series of podcasts called Apologetics 315:Today's Apologist is Dr.Ron Rhodes. Dr. Ron Rhodes Podcast Interview Well known Apologist Dr.Ron Rhodes, former host of the Bible Answerman show for 8 years from 1994-2002 until he started his own ministry. I wrote to him, specifically bringing up the materialist logic, reason, and reality arguments here at EvC asking him how he would handle such activity.

Because so far every explanation of what that means from you or any other member of your "Mainstream Christianity" is nothing but word salad with no real meaning.Why is it that you have never been able to tell me what that really means? Yes Phat, that is exactly what the Jesus character in the Bible tells us to do.

Another bare link?

But if its simply a character in a book, how is that any different than listening to yourself? Because you refuse to accept any of the bumper stickers (as you put it) explanations. Nobody can tell you anything you will accept or understand, apparently. You have a preconceived bias against American Christianity anyway.
You have already made up your mind as to what it means. Scripture tells us that no man can come to know God unless the Spirit draws them. That's one reason why no human has ever been able to offer you an explanation of what stuff means that many people accept.

What do you expect? A term paper? He has nothing new to teach. You lack the belief anyway so why bother complaining? I bet you go to restaurants and grumble about the service!

I expect admins to follow forum rules. I also expect to be called out when I do not follow forum rules.

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5. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

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I am not going to listen to his pod cast. If you want to post a link describe what he has to say. No shit. You know nothing about me. I find most restaurants I go to have very good service. If service is bad it is usually caused by something outside of the control of the server. Rarely, is the server at fault. Quite pretending you know anything about me.

Phat, try to think.It is what is actually written in the Book you and the Apologists claim to be the basis for your beliefs. Correct Phat, bumper sticker explanations, word salad without meaning or substance is all anyone has ever been able to offer. And yes, it seems lots of people accept such marketing.God gave at least me a brain to actually use.

Yes.

A common pattern that I have observed from the Christians I associate with and believe the integrity of is that they studied and searched the scriptures a lot, studied other beliefs, and yet had one basic event in common:
They never threw any of it away
They felt a tug at their heart and soul...(which to you would be a red flag rather than an epiphany) and they finally surrendered to what they honestly felt to be a living Christ. A major change subsequently happened to them and all doubt was vanquished.You never understood the process (which may actually mean you were using full critical thinking skills) and never understood what it was that "tugged at your heart and soul" and what it meant for GOD to be alive, and what it meant that the character was not limited to the book. Thus you never allowed yourself to surrender and thus never felt any sort of epiphany.You seem to value sacred studies more than simply Jesus as the final answer. I respect though disagree with this only in that I believe Jesus is the final answer...its always good to study how the other folk believe.Add by edit: Perhaps what I describe as surrender is to you the sizzle without the steak. You likely believe that Christianity is a lifelong commitment to doing rather than a one time surrender. I appreciate your perspective, but I firmly believe in the initial surrender which is most definitely felt as a major change.
You and ringo and others may argue that this change is an illusion. An easy solution. A release from responsibility rather than a commitment. But I don't think it has to be that way. And I don't think people can truly commune with GOD, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit without it. But to those who are content with critically valuing all religions as equally valid and plausible, (at the same time in the same cultural space) relativism supersedes absolute truth.Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.