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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 586 of 853 (868914)
12-20-2019 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by jar
12-19-2019 5:30 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
jar writes:

With the God Character playing both Wicked Witch and Fairy Godmother.

I submit that most Christians believe that God is good---not complete, as you assert.
And people think god was a male.
Christians believe that Jesus Christ was indeed a male. I notice in some of your humor that you attempt to emasculate Him, as does our liberal inclusive culture. Satan is a wily adversary.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by jar, posted 12-19-2019 5:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 7:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 587 of 853 (868917)
12-20-2019 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by Phat
12-20-2019 3:43 AM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
Phat writes:

I submit that most Christians believe that God is good---not complete, as you assert.

And I would agree. But that of course has absolutely no weight as evidence other than that most people create God in their own image.

Phat writes:

Christians believe that Jesus Christ was indeed a male. I notice in some of your humor that you attempt to emasculate Him, as does our liberal inclusive culture. Satan is a wily adversary.

Yet you are replying to the issue that people think God is a male. Think Phat. Try it. You'll like it.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 3:43 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 588 of 853 (868920)
12-20-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
12-19-2019 2:43 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

God created Satan.


Samuel Colt created a revolver too. We dont hold him responsible for every wrong done with his guns.

Do you really want to go with that analogy? Smith and Wesson created a revolver too. So did many others. Do you really want to reduce your god to one of many who created bad things?

If Sam Colt was the only one who ever created a deadly weapon, then yes, we would hold him responsible for every death by deadly weapon. So yes, since your God supposedly created all things seen and unseen, including all things deadly, then He is, in fact, responsible for every death.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 12-19-2019 2:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 3:04 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 589 of 853 (868921)
12-20-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 577 by Faith
12-19-2019 4:58 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
Faith writes:

The devil didn't start out as the devil. He started out as the most beautiful and powerful of God's angels. He became the devil by becoming corrupted by jealousy of God and the desire to displace Him.


What fruit did he eat?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 12-19-2019 4:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2019 12:08 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 590 of 853 (868922)
12-20-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by Phat
12-20-2019 3:38 AM


Re: Comparing God Characters
Phat writes:

I am concluding that I see better reasoned and thoughtful arguments from them than I am seeing here.


Then show us their arguments. Show us that you understand them by putting them in your own words.

Phat writes:

I am open to see dishonesty from these talks....


Clearly not, since you keep refusing to bring their arguments here.

Phat writes:

Go ahead and research my source.


No. You bring it here. This is a discussion site, not a do-your-homework-for-you site.

Phat writes:

You won't find any snake oil or phony diplomas there.


If you're so confident in that, why are you afraid to bring their arguments here?

Phat writes:

I submit that this whole basic argument asserting that all of the apologists are dishonest is flawed.


You have submitted nothing but opinion - and you won't even tell us what your opinion is based on. You're making the apologists look even worse.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 3:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5295
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 591 of 853 (868930)
12-20-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by ringo
12-20-2019 10:48 AM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
What fruit did he eat?

He had a conversation with a snake.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by ringo, posted 12-20-2019 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by ringo, posted 12-20-2019 12:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 592 of 853 (868932)
12-20-2019 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by AZPaul3
12-20-2019 12:08 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
AZPaul3 writes:

He had a conversation with a snake.


So he was talking to himself?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2019 12:08 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2019 2:11 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5295
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 593 of 853 (868944)
12-20-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by ringo
12-20-2019 12:15 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
No, silly. His cousin Vinny. Vinny the Snake.

The one who tried to hit on Eve.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by ringo, posted 12-20-2019 12:15 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 594 of 853 (868949)
12-20-2019 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by ringo
12-20-2019 10:45 AM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
ringo writes:

So yes, since your God supposedly created all things seen and unseen, including all things deadly, then He is, in fact, responsible for every death.

If your son pulled the trigger, would you be responsible?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by ringo, posted 12-20-2019 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 3:37 PM Phat has responded
 Message 600 by ringo, posted 12-21-2019 10:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 595 of 853 (868955)
12-20-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by Phat
12-20-2019 3:04 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
Phat writes:

If your son pulled the trigger, would you be responsible?

It depends on how old the son is, if the son could legally own the handgun, the specifics of the incident and also on the history of parental training.

You keep bringing up really silly examples Phat.

You claim that God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen. If that is the case then yes, God is responsible for all evil and well as all good. And if that God created anyone who will be damned to hell then that God is definitely evil.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 3:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 4:23 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 596 of 853 (868963)
12-20-2019 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by jar
12-20-2019 3:37 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
And if that God created anyone who will be damned to hell then that God is definitely evil.
Even a fallen angel? You claim that the story is silly. If one has a world view that espouses the Bible as fairytales, with no allowance toward belief in a transformative experience (which millions of Christians would attest to ) and if one advocates throwing the characters away and living life the same way an atheist would, I could see the connection. I have had some really good Christians--selfless, giving, and having read the Bible--tell me that the key to it all is submission to Jesus...whom YOU advocate "throwing away". So what if you went through the rituals of an established chapter of Christianity? You see it all as symbolic mythos anyway. And by claiming that such a God is evil, you prove that you don't understand the fact that Christianity is not all about what YOU do...its about what He did and about how YOU respond to what He did.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 3:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 4:31 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 597 of 853 (868964)
12-20-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Phat
12-20-2019 4:23 PM


It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

jar writes:

And if that God created anyone who will be damned to hell then that God is definitely evil.

Even a fallen angel?

If you claim that God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that God possess foreknowledge then yes, that God is evil. If God creates something foreknown to be damned then that is truly evil unless you can provide some justification for that act of God.

Phat writes:

And by claiming that such a God is evil, you prove that you don't understand the fact that Christianity is not all about what YOU do...its about what He did and about how YOU respond to what He did.

Then perhaps you can support that assertions with something more than the usual dogma.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 4:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 4:58 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 598 of 853 (868967)
12-20-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by jar
12-20-2019 4:31 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

And by claiming that such a God is evil, you prove that you don't understand the fact that Christianity is not all about what YOU do...its about what He did and about how YOU respond to what He did.

jar writes:

Then perhaps you can support that assertion with something more than the usual dogma.(...)I think that Original Sin plays a major part in a few of the more exclusionary sects of Christianity. It's a mechanism to help sort THEM from US. It's an "All GOD's chillun got Original Sins but only WE got the magic bullet" artifact. It helps them justify internally their exclusionary practices and gives them a certain amount of cover.

So your major beef with the doctrine of salvation from original sin is that it makes some of us feel exclusive? This then means that you believe that God, if God exists, is inclusive regarding salvation. That all God's chillun get saved, providing them relief from damnation, yet that they are then expected to become responsible, adopt an honor system, and DO their best. Nothing else needed. No transformation. In fact, God will likely let everyone into Heaven who at least made a decent effort to put in work for others. Is that a fair summation?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 4:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 5:16 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 12-21-2019 10:53 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 599 of 853 (868969)
12-20-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by Phat
12-20-2019 4:58 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

So your major beef with the doctrine of salvation from original sin is that it makes some of us feel exclusive?

No Phat and by know you really should have a good idea of my position so I have to wonder why you are always misrepresenting what I say.

The problem with the snake-oil sold as Original Sin is that there is no evidence in the Bible of Original Sin. But it's an easy sales job and also makes it easy to sell the Get Outta Original Sin card.

Phat writes:

That all God's chillun get saved, providing them relief from damnation, yet that they are then expected to become responsible, adopt an honor system, and DO their best. Nothing else needed. No transformation.

No Phat, that is something of a perversion of the scenario that the Bible has the Jesus character outlining and anything I have ever posted. It's not my idea, it's what the Bible says Jesus described. The difference is that Jesus says that first they are expected to become responsible, adopt an honor system, and DO their best for others. It is on what they do that they are judged. And yes, Jesus makes no mention of whether there is any transformation or even any belief.

Do you remember me mentioning passages from Matthew and Luke or do I need to yet again quote them for you?

Have you ever read the Bible Phat?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 4:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 600 of 853 (868990)
12-21-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by Phat
12-20-2019 3:04 PM


Re: The Goat Whisperer
Phat writes:

If your son pulled the trigger, would you be responsible?


You keep diminishing the power of your God. He's not supposed to be just any old father who has no control over what happens to His children, is He? If there's something He can't control, He's weak. If there's something He can control and chooses not to, He's responsible.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Phat, posted 12-20-2019 3:04 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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