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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 601 of 666 (868991)
12-21-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Thugpreacha
12-20-2019 4:58 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

That all God's chillun get saved, providing them relief from damnation....


Don't you see how silly the idea of being "saved" is?

First, you can only be saved from something. That something is damnation - by God. So God is supposedly saving you from Himself. (That should be fairly easy, even for the weakling god that you posit - all he has to do is nothing.)

Second, you can not be saved from something before it happens. A firefighter doesn't rescue you before the fire. You can hope you'll be rescued. You can be pretty sure that you'll be rescued. But you can not say that you have been rescued when what you need to be rescued from hasn't happened yet. (And if the firefighter is the one who started the fire, I wouldn't trust his promise to save me from it.)


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-20-2019 4:58 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 602 of 666 (868994)
12-21-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
12-21-2019 10:53 AM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
ringo writes:

Don't you see how silly the idea of being "saved" is?
First, you can only be saved from something. That something is damnation - by God. So God is supposedly saving you from Himself. (That should be fairly easy, even for the weakling god that you posit - all he has to do is nothing.)

Second, you can not be saved from something before it happens. A firefighter doesn't rescue you before the fire. You can hope you'll be rescued. You can be pretty sure that you'll be rescued. But you can not say that you have been rescued when what you need to be rescued from hasn't happened yet. (And if the firefighter is the one who started the fire, I wouldn't trust his promise to save me from it.)

I will admit that apologetics essentially "makes up" a storyline. I will defend this charge since we are talking supernatural possibilities here. So to continue... Given the supernatural being real, we not only have God...we have
1) A War in Heaven
2) The dark side.
3) Humans as free-willed spirit beings rather than simply animals. So far as we know, we are the only animal to be aware of our Creator. I suppose we could sue Him for allowing a war to break out in Heaven and for us to gain knowledge at the expense of innocent truth. The only way that humans could mature into our spiritual destiny was by being given a choice to decide which side we were on. One can obviously question God as to why this whole scenario had to happen, but even if you choose to believe none of it, you still have made a conscious choice. The ball is in our court...not Gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 12-21-2019 10:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 12-21-2019 12:20 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 603 of 666 (868995)
12-21-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 12:10 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

The ball is in our court...not Gods.


No, the ball is in your court. You started a topic titled, "Testing The Christian Apologists". Do that.

Stop this moronic preaching. Bring an apologist argument here and let us test it.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 604 of 666 (868996)
12-21-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 12:10 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
LOL

Have you ever read the Bible Phat?

If there was a war in heaven it was over thousands of years ago.

There is no Dark Side in the Bible, that's Star Wars.

And with number three, are you now claiming God does not have foreknowledge?

See Phat, the whole body of what you call "Mainstream Christianity" is nothing but a whole series of convenient compromises and convenient contradictions. It can only exist in minds willfully divorced from reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:24 PM jar has responded
 Message 606 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:27 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 605 of 666 (868997)
12-21-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by jar
12-21-2019 12:21 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Reality itself should be challenged and questioned. What seems evidential, measured, and logical to you may end up being deception.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:29 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 606 of 666 (868998)
12-21-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by jar
12-21-2019 12:21 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
jar writes:

And with number three, are you now claiming God does not have foreknowledge?

Whether He does or not ir irrelevant. We must continue to make our conscious choices and live with the consequences. If you throw all of your gods away, you will live with the consequences.Thank God for His Grace.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:33 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 607 of 666 (868999)
12-21-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 12:24 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
LOL

Phat writes:

Reality itself should be challenged and questioned. What seems evidential, measured, and logical to you may end up being deception.

Think Phat, think.

What is the Scientific Method other than constantly challenging, questioning and repeatedly testing reality to make sure it is not deception.

That is in fact exactly why all Apologists fail and fail miserably. They do not challenge, question and repeatedly test the utter nonsense they market to make sure it is not deception.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:24 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 608 of 666 (869000)
12-21-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 12:27 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

Whether He does or not ir irrelevant.

No Phat, the topic is Testing the Christian Apologists and so such claims are very relevant and in addition the fact that Apologist like you seem to use either a God with Foreknowledge or a God without Foreknowledge depending solely on whether or not it helps the point you are selling at that moment.

It is yet another utter failure of every Christian Apologetic.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 12:27 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 4:52 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 609 of 666 (869005)
12-21-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by jar
12-21-2019 12:33 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
This explains a lot. It tells me that you never became a believer largely because you were taught to question everything you were told and everything that is taught in mainstream Christianity. I can respect this to a point, and I think that GOD, if GOD exists, will respect your reasoning also...knowing the motives of your heart and intentions. That being said, I question the teaching to throw God away. I believe as you do, that we are charged to do good for others. I think that there are far too many political Christians who have an unhealthy love for money, and this is why they continue to defend Donald Trump. I also agree that just believing and receiving Jesus into our heart (and mind) is no surefire inoculation from stinkin thinkin. I also find it a bit extreme to simply label all apologists dishonest who refuse to question their conclusions. Some of them believe that one has to stand for something no matter what the cost rather than simply discard each new revelation in the name of critical thinking, testing, model, mechanism, methodology, etc. By that line of reasoning, none of us would believe that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and paid for our transgressions. You may argue that it is better to be uncertain, thus spurring yourself to always do more. Only God can judge the motives of any of our hearts. Personally, I was particularly impressed with the Islamic Apologists who decided to embrace Christianity after critically evaluating Islam.

Can you honestly charge Abdu Murray with being dishonest simply because he did not take the final step and question religion itself? Critical Thinking is a useful tool, but I disagree with the conclusion that an honest man would throw even his beliefs away in the name of truth. Truth is Christ. You can't go deeper than that. What you do means nothing had God not made a way for you. At best, you can comfort people in this life only. Not saying we shouldnt, however.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 5:12 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 611 by Theodoric, posted 12-23-2019 9:44 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 612 by ringo, posted 12-23-2019 10:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 615 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2019 11:02 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 610 of 666 (869009)
12-21-2019 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 609 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 4:52 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

This explains a lot. It tells me that you never became a believer largely because you were taught to question everything you were told and everything that is taught in mainstream Christianity.

It can't tell you much or you refuse to learn from what you read because I am a believer Phat.

Phat writes:

Personally, I was particularly impressed with the Islamic Apologists who decided to embrace Christianity after critically evaluating Islam.

Yet far more abandon Christianity and adopt Islam after critically evaluating Christianity.

Phat writes:

Critical Thinking is a useful tool, but I disagree with the conclusion that an honest man would throw even his beliefs away in the name of truth.

If the beliefs are as totally flawed as what the Apologists market then why shouldn't they be thrown away.

Go back and reread your responses throughout this thread and you must see that you NEVER actually address what others post but just pull Gish Gallop after Gish Gallop.

Phat writes:

Some of them believe that one has to stand for something no matter what the cost rather than simply discard each new revelation in the name of critical thinking, testing, model, mechanism, methodology, etc.

Exactly Phat, they refuse to be swayed by facts, truth, honesty or reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 4:52 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 611 of 666 (869100)
12-23-2019 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 4:52 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Abdu Murray? Really? A Ravi Zacharias acolyte? Really? I have repeatedly shown that that Ravi Zacharias is a known and admitted liar, cheat and scoundrel. Why should I not assume that those associated with him are not the same?
I find it very interesting that Abdu Murray claims to be an ex-Muslim but there is absolutely no information showing he was actually raised a muslim or was at any time a devout muslim. He has no education or training in religion. He is a commercial real estate lawyer. Maybe you can find some actual info on this guy that shows he is what he claims.

To refresh your memory on Ravi, here are actually verifiable facts showing that he is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.

RaviWatch - Investigating the false claims of evangelist Ravi Zacharias


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 4:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-26-2019 12:05 PM Theodoric has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 612 of 666 (869107)
12-23-2019 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 4:52 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Phat writes:

I also find it a bit extreme to simply label all apologists dishonest who refuse to question their conclusions.


Refusing to question your own conclusions is dishonest, period. It's also hubris.

Phat writes:

Only God can judge the motives of any of our hearts.


Nope. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Phat writes:

Personally, I was particularly impressed with the Islamic Apologists who decided to embrace Christianity after critically evaluating Islam.


That's bizarre. You're in favour of critically evaluating Islam but not Christianity?

Phat writes:

I disagree with the conclusion that an honest man would throw even his beliefs away in the name of truth.


So truth is not important to you.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 4:52 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 9:45 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13571
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 613 of 666 (869146)
12-24-2019 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by ringo
12-23-2019 10:49 AM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
So truth is not important to you.

Jesus Before Pilate
…37“Then You are a king!” Pilate said. “You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” 38“What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him. 3

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by ringo, posted 12-23-2019 10:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-24-2019 10:48 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17835
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 614 of 666 (869150)
12-24-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 613 by Thugpreacha
12-24-2019 9:45 AM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
In Message 609 you said, "...I disagree with the conclusion that an honest man would throw even his beliefs away in the name of truth. Of course you should throw your beliefs away if they conflict with the truth.

But what does that have to do with what Jesus said to Pilate?

And by the way, it seems ironic that you quote Jesus, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice," (John 18:37) when you're the one who scoffs at His message.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-24-2019 9:45 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-26-2019 11:09 AM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 615 of 666 (869224)
12-26-2019 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2019 4:52 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
So you cannot provide any reasoning of why we should consider anything that Abdu Murray has to say is for some reason notable.

I very well may have read the bible as many times as he has. I would really like to know more about his muslim background.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2019 4:52 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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