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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 631 of 853 (869320)
12-28-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by Theodoric
12-28-2019 11:37 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Your interpretation is not his own words, thanks anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Theodoric, posted 12-28-2019 11:37 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Theodoric, posted 12-28-2019 11:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 632 of 853 (869322)
12-28-2019 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by Phat
12-28-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
I do not find any evidence that his associates at RZIM are dishonest or misleading.

Their willingness to be so closely associated with a known and admitted cheat, liar and scoundrel should be quite telling.
Also, the fact that Abdu Murray provides no information on his background as a Muslim or his 9 year investigation that lead him to become a second rate christian apologist, should be quite telling. If I was going to let some guy explain to me the tenets of my belief system, I would demand at least that much background information about him. I realize that is not something christians do.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 9:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 633 of 853 (869324)
12-28-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 627 by Faith
12-28-2019 10:32 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
quote:
While I have been privileged to receive several honorary doctorates from other institutions, to be clear, I have never earned a doctoral degree and was never enrolled at the University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge. And while I have lectured at Wycliffe Hall, I am not and have never been a professor at the University of Oxford. I recognize that academic terms and designations are important, and I apologize for any occasion on which I have wrongly titled my association with either of these institutions. For these reasons, I previously updated my curriculum vitae on the RZIM website to best reflect my educational and professional experience.

Exclusive: Ravi Zacharias Apologizes for False Claims about His Credentials at Oxford and Cambridge – Warren Throckmorton

Liar, liar, pants on fire.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 12-28-2019 10:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 634 of 853 (869326)
12-28-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
12-28-2019 11:42 AM


His own words
quote:
While I have been privileged to receive several honorary doctorates from other institutions, to be clear, I have never earned a doctoral degree and was never enrolled at the University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge. And while I have lectured at Wycliffe Hall, I am not and have never been a professor at the University of Oxford. I recognize that academic terms and designations are important, and I apologize for any occasion on which I have wrongly titled my association with either of these institutions. For these reasons, I previously updated my curriculum vitae on the RZIM website to best reflect my educational and professional experience.

Exclusive: Ravi Zacharias Apologizes for False Claims about His Credentials at Oxford and Cambridge – Warren Throckmorton


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 12-28-2019 11:42 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 635 of 853 (869328)
12-28-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by ringo
12-28-2019 10:45 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Agreed, but the apologists and their followers hold these scoundrels up as paragons as virtue. Their followers listen to them because they have marketed themselves as well educated, well respected, virtuous authorities. The christians will never actually examine the actual arguments. Exposing them as frauds should also expose their fraudulent arguments.
Alas, I know it won't. The sheep willingly get fleeced.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by ringo, posted 12-28-2019 10:45 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:43 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14583
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 636 of 853 (869338)
12-28-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by ringo
12-28-2019 10:45 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
ringo writes:

The problem is that you're still not looking at the apologetics. You're conceding that some apologists have been dishonest in their personal lives but you're leaving yourself open to still believing their apologetic arguments. I don't care if Ravi Zacharias slept with the entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I'm only interested in what he says about the Bible. Why do you refuse to consider that?

Because I believe what I was taught, basically. Not everyone who teaches it the traditional way is a scam artist or liar. What's more, none of the ones attempting to "teach" me the correct way to look at it have ever admitted to having a born again experience with Jesus. In fact, many of you claim that He never existed. Why should I listen to your plain reading of a book that you tout as nothing more than a secular humanist message to do humanitarian acts for others?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by ringo, posted 12-28-2019 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 1:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14583
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 637 of 853 (869339)
12-28-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Theodoric
12-28-2019 12:02 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
I see your point. "The Christians"...by whom I assume you mean the literalist fundamentalists, believe that everyone sins and is capable of deceiving themselves. We thus tend to give anyone who confesses their sin before the church body and repents honestly as no longer a scoundrel, sinner, adulterer or whatever. Granted we are wise enough to give the healing process some time and insist upon accountability. WE do not like liars any more than you do, but we tend to forgive them quicker than you would. (apparently)

The reason I stopped defending Ravi is not that he sinned. It is because he had to be exposed and did not catch it himself beforehand.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Theodoric, posted 12-28-2019 12:02 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 4:03 AM Phat has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 638 of 853 (869347)
12-29-2019 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 637 by Phat
12-28-2019 3:43 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
I still feel I need to know more about how Ravi got into what he got into. Did he believe what he was saying at the time in some weird way perhaps? If he taught a class at Oxford in Wycliffe Hall I think he said or maybe I have the name wrong, did he feel he could call himself a professor without bothering about accurate titles or what? His statement of repentance or apology emphasizes the importance of using correct titles, so is he saying he was just ignorant or sloppy about their use or what? Yes I'm trying to find a way to minimize it but in the end maybe he was conscious of it all.

However, that doesn't make what you said wrong, about how the church forgives and wipes the slate clean, because scripture is clear that we do forgive and consider the slate wiped clean if there is repentance. And if we are born again then God does not count our sins against us. But we do have to repent.

And we still suffer consequences for our sins in this life. Remember David who sinned with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered. The conseqeucnes were horrendous. First his baby son with Bathsheba died, then one of his other sons raped his half sister and then treated her like dirt. Then Absalom rebelled and tried to take David's throne from him and died. All that came from David's sins with Bathsheba. We all suffer for our sins and sometimes our sins have consequences for others too.

I see some in my own life, some sufferings and deprivation of happiness for me and even my descendants too as a result of my own sins. It's depressing but it's better to know it than not. This is how the Moral Law works, and it works in everybody's life, believer or nonbeliever. But still God accepts my repentance and welcomes me back as far as my future life with Him goes. I do have to suffer here nevertheless.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2019 6:41 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 640 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 12:42 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16544
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 639 of 853 (869350)
12-29-2019 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
12-29-2019 4:03 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Two points that seem relevant.

Firstly, deception is part of his method. As Phat quoted in Message 617

It took many hours of reading and contacting Old Testament scholars to see that RZ's Daniel argument was fundamentally dishonest.
I wondered why so qualified an academic would resort to bogus tactics of persuasion...

Misrepresenting his credentials to add the appearance of credibility to his claims is part of that. And it works on those who are in sufficiently sceptical. From the same quote:

...When I find a brilliant and articulate defender of the faith I tend to pay attention. Around early 2015 I happened upon RZ. He was not only articulate but had the Oxford and Cambridge education and multiple doctorate degrees to deserve a fair listen.

See also the deceptive bluster quoted in Message 253 as explained in my Message 256

Secondly credential inflation seems to be quite common among creationists, who are a similar brand of apologist. From Kent Hovind’s diploma mill doctorate to the Discovery Institute’s lists of “scientists” to the attempts to present Werner Gitt as an academic, rather than a manager.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 4:03 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14583
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 640 of 853 (869363)
12-29-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
12-29-2019 4:03 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Faith writes:

I still feel I need to know more about how Ravi got into what he got into. Did he believe what he was saying at the time in some weird way, perhaps?
If he taught a class at Oxford in Wycliffe Hall, I think he said, or maybe I have the name wrong, did he feel he could call himself a professor without bothering about accurate titles or what? His statement of repentance or apology emphasizes the importance of using correct titles, so is he saying he was just ignorant or sloppy about their use or what? Yes, I'm trying to find a way to minimize it, but in the end, maybe he was conscious of it all.
However, that doesn't make what you said wrong, about how the church forgives and wipes the slate clean, because scripture is clear that we do forgive and consider the slate wiped clean if there is repentance. And if we are born again, then God does not count our sins against us. But we do have to repent.

And we still suffer consequences for our sins in this life. Remember David, who sinned with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered. The consequences were horrendous. First, his baby son with Bathsheba died, then one of his other sons raped his half-sister and then treated her like dirt. Then Absalom rebelled and tried to take David's throne from him and died. All that came from David's sins with Bathsheba. We all suffer for our sins, and sometimes our sins have consequences for others too.

I see some in my own life, some sufferings and deprivation of happiness for me and even my descendants too as a result of my own sins. It's depressing but it's better to know it than not. This is how the Moral Law works, and it works in everybody's life, believer or nonbeliever. But still, God accepts my repentance and welcomes me back as far as my future life with Him goes. I do have to suffer here, nevertheless.

Yes. I don't think that Ravi was consciously aware that he was deceiving people--he likely justified the titles in his own mind. The author explains it this way:

Steve Baughman writes:

Ravi’s greatest intellectual sin has not been his dishonesty but his shallowness. There is a rich discussion underway between committed scholars on all sides of the God issues. Ravi Zacharias muddies the water with his pretended expertise. May this book nudge him aside with speed.

Second, a theological point. I consider it fair fighting to suggest that if Christianity were true, Christians would be different. The religion’s official documents speak mightily of the sanctifying power of the blood of Jesus. This is one of the few testable claims Christianity makes. If being a “new creature” in Christ means anything, it means being significantly different from us old creatures. If Jesus really sanctifies we should see more than mere anecdotes about lost wretches getting found; we should see vast differences between God, Inc. and Tobacco, Inc. A Hindu once asked Ravi “If the Christian faith is truly supernatural, why is it not more evident in the lives of so many Christians I know?” Perhaps this heathen had a premonition about something that is now more widely known; Ravi Zacharias’s secret life is a counterexample to the message of his public life.

Of course, a single failure of a miracle drug does not make it snake oil. But when the industry leaders who push the miracle drug do not bother taking it, or they take it to no effect, critics are not unreasonable to view that as weighing against the miraculousness of the drug. In this book, we shall see that significant parts of the Christian business world (here I refer to seminaries, colleges, evangelical organizations, churches, and publishers) have not manifested the newness that the religion of their livelihoods promises. To what extent that undermines the truth of the world’s biggest religion is, I submit, a legitimate point for discussion. Thoughtful readers will spare me the “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” straw man. No skeptic worth her salt considers the absence of perfect Christians to be evidence against the truth of the religion. The claim is, rather, that if Christianity were true, Christians would be noticeably different around the things that matter, like money and integrity in business. They aren’t. Therefore, . . .

Baughman, Steve. Cover-Up in the Kingdom: Phone Sex, Lies, And God's Great Apologist, Ravi Zacharias. BookBaby. Kindle Edition.

I respect how this author attempts to keep his own pride in check---he is an attorney by trade---and presents simply the available facts behind the matter. Unlike Theodoric, I am in no way eager to brand Ravi as a shyster, con artist, or flim-flam man. The author describes Ravi as shallow, but I believe that Ravi is intelligent and his perspective on Christianity still has value. Sadly, this book violated my trust and caused me some cognitive dissonance in my beliefs. Theodoric first brought this issue up, and I find it humbling that God is using atheists to temper my perspective on belief, truth, and reality. jar has also mentioned the dishonesty of many Biblical Christians, but he claims that they all are dishonest---which is ridiculous.

Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology here. As a Christian, I believe that all have sinned. Everybody is dishonest at one time or another. The counter-argument is that we humans do have the ability, to tell the truth, and have integrity.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 4:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 1:16 PM Phat has responded
 Message 644 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2019 1:31 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 641 of 853 (869367)
12-29-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Phat
12-28-2019 3:37 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:

Not everyone who teaches it the traditional way is a scam artist or liar.


But surely you want to know which ones are liars and which ones are not, don't you? How can you do that except by testing what they say?

Phat writes:

What's more, none of the ones attempting to "teach" me the correct way to look at it have ever admitted to having a born again experience with Jesus.


Nobody here is trying to "teach" you anything. We're just trying to get you to think.

Phat writes:

Why should I listen to your plain reading of a book that you tout as nothing more than a secular humanist message to do humanitarian acts for others?


Because it might be the truth. Duh.

How can you tell who's telling the truth without testing both versions?

You started a thread titled "Testing The Christian Apologists". Why not participate in good faith in your own thread?


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 642 of 853 (869368)
12-29-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 640 by Phat
12-29-2019 12:42 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
I do think the church is in bad shape these days, and I count myself as in bad shape too, in our apparent weakness of falling into sin. However, there are plenty of examples of that among the Christians in the New Testament too, we're not alone, although it's possible more of us are weak now, I don't really know. The fact that we supposedly live in a "Christian" culture may have something to do with this: we don't expect ourselves to rise much above the culture. We all know unbelievers who live good lives too. Nevertheless the author is right that there SHOULD be a distinction between us and the culture that is not apparent. In my own place I could point out that I was a far WORSE sinner before I became a believer but nobody here knew me then.

When we fall sometimes it's hard to get up, sometimes we don't even know we fell. There's a whole discussion that could be had in here somewhere but maybe not here since this is supposed to be about the apologists. I've avoided this thread to some extent probably mostly because attacking the apologists seems odd to me. All they are doing is trying to spell out the Christian doctrines, so it becomes a discussion about the doctrines anyway, rather than the apologists per se.

Billy Graham was always impressive with his strict rules about avoiding occasions of temptation, particularly with women. But also we need to pray for those in the public eye because they are particular targets.

Anyway thanks for your response. I hadn't listened to Ravi in years abut always thought he did a good job.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 12:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:34 PM Faith has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14583
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 643 of 853 (869369)
12-29-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by ringo
12-29-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Ok Ok. I got you. But my bigger question at the moment is whether the Christian Nationalists can handle being broke. Reality suggests that a lot of them will soon be heading that way. The wealthy ones were never really Christians anyway, right?

But lets you and i discuss some of the basic dogma that is common in Christian apologetics. Stuff that I may have taken for granted and that you may have never accepted.

  • Sell all that you have and give to the poor.--You claim that this message is for everybody. Am I right? Please elaborate, and please show us that you are well on your way to selling everything.
  • Accept Jesus into your heart. --
  • The flesh wars against the Spirit. Thus, resist the flesh and feed the Spirit.
  • Find a local church and commune regularly with others Does the Saskatchewan Library count?

  • Any others you might find

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 648 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:09 PM Phat has responded

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 7051
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005


    Message 644 of 853 (869370)
    12-29-2019 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 640 by Phat
    12-29-2019 12:42 PM


    Re: Examining The Evidence
    I don't think that Ravi was consciously aware that he was deceiving people--he likely justified the titles in his own mind.

    He probably did justify the titles, in hid own mind, but he was consciously misrepresenting himself and scamming people. Do you honestly believe he had nothing to do with sites and his pr staff developing this bogus list of credentials. He knew he was lying.
    Can you name any major atheist pundit that has misrepresented their credentials? There well may be, but I am not aware of any.
    Ravi is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 640 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 12:42 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 647 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:57 PM Theodoric has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14583
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 645 of 853 (869372)
    12-29-2019 1:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 642 by Faith
    12-29-2019 1:16 PM


    Re: Examining The Evidence
    ringo writes:

    But surely you want to know which ones are liars and which ones are not, don't you? How can you do that except by testing what they say?

    I always liked Billy Graham. My parents did too. Evidently so did many presidents.

    Let's add him to my discussion with ringo. I am curious how ringo responds to common apologetic assumptions that we Christians believe in.

    Here is a good blog that I am just now reading. I googled "Billy Graham+Apologetics" and found it.
    Billy Graham:Apologist?

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : oops


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 642 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 1:16 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 646 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 1:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 649 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:11 PM Phat has responded

      
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