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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 66 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 646 of 853 (869373)
12-29-2019 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Phat
12-29-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat, you have attributed a quote to me that is not mine. Please correct. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 647 of 853 (869376)
12-29-2019 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Theodoric
12-29-2019 1:31 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Theo writes:

Can you name any major atheist pundit that has misrepresented their credentials?

No, and I don't really care to look. Would you argue, however, that Christians have a worse track record than atheists? Or are we all the same?
He probably did justify the titles, in hid own mind, but he was consciously misrepresenting himself and scamming people.
Why is it so easy for Christians to forgive one another and so hard for you?
Ravi is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.
What bothers me more is that now you trust nobody from RZIM. Do you think that all Christian apologists are in the same boat, as jar does?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2019 1:31 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2019 5:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 648 of 853 (869377)
12-29-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Phat
12-29-2019 1:26 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:

But my bigger question at the moment is whether the Christian Nationalists can handle being broke.


That isn't the topic.

Phat writes:

But lets you and i discuss some of the basic dogma that is common in Christian apologetics.


I'd rather discuss the topic.

Phat writes:

Sell all that you have and give to the poor.--You claim that this message is for everybody. Am I right?


I don't make any claim. I just don't see anywhere where Jesus listed exceptions.

Phat writes:

... please show us that you are well on your way to selling everything.


As I've told you before, I don't even believe that Jesus existed. Why would I follow His advice any more than I would follow the Fred Flintstone's advice? I'm just wondering why you claim to believe in Him yet you ridicule His advice.

Phat writes:

Accept Jesus into your heart. --


My heart is busy pumping blood right now. If Jesus was in there, I'd probably need to have Him surgically removed.

Phat writes:

The flesh wars against the Spirit.


The "spirit" is a function of mind. A fragment of underdone potato can tamper with Scrooge's mind and make him "see" spirits but otherwise there's no "war".

But the topic is Testing the Christian Apologists. Are you admitting that they've failed the test?


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:38 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 649 of 853 (869378)
12-29-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Phat
12-29-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:

I am curious how ringo responds to common apologetic assumptions that we Christians believe in.


How can I respond to their assumptions if you won't bring them here?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 650 of 853 (869394)
12-29-2019 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ringo
12-29-2019 2:11 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
ringo writes:

How can I respond to their assumptions if you won't bring them here?

OK lets start with a common one:
4 Spiritual Laws
This is a common apologetic. It is scriptural. Now go ahead and trash it---its what you do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 4:43 PM Phat has responded
 Message 658 by ringo, posted 12-30-2019 10:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 651 of 853 (869395)
12-29-2019 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by ringo
12-29-2019 2:09 PM


Who is On The Throne?

The basic teaching is shown in this diagram. I have always told you that we humans seek to deify ourselves and be on the throne. This is where I must have gotten that concept.

Phat writes:

... please show us that you are well on your way to selling everything.

Whereupon ringo artfully dodges the responsibility that he hoists upon me:
...As I've told you before, I don't even believe that Jesus existed. Why would I follow His advice any more than I would follow Fred Flintstone's advice? I'm just wondering why you claim to believe in Him yet you ridicule His advice.
Because I'm human. We were created with the freedom to rebel. Jesus is the antidote to satan. Satan basically created himself (evil) by having the freedom to disobey the Boss. Granted that God created a freewilled Lucifer but God did not *make* him rebel.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 12-30-2019 10:46 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 652 of 853 (869396)
12-29-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Phat
12-29-2019 4:30 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
SHEEESH Phat.

Did you even read that crap? I mean that is simply hilarious that ANYONE could read shuch utter crap without laughing.

There is absolutely nothing there but selling the BIG con, no value, no meaning, no charge, no morality, nothing but CON!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 5:03 PM jar has responded
 Message 655 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2019 5:05 PM jar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 653 of 853 (869398)
12-29-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Phat
12-29-2019 1:57 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Why is it so easy for Christians to forgive one another and so hard for you?

This has nothing to do with forgiving. I have nothing to forgive him for. I am just stating know admitted facts. He is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel. You yourself agree he is a liar If you feel the need to "forgive" by all means forgive. I am not even sure what that means in this context. I am just stating facts.

What bothers me more is that now you trust nobody from RZIM.

I never trusted them, but there is plenty of evidence why my reasoning is justified. Do you not feel it is odd that Abdu Murray says nothing about his past? Do you not feel it is odd that he is just a dude with no actual training telling you what your beliefs should be? Does that same normal?
Do you think that all Christian apologists are in the same boat, as jar does?

Yup. Have never been shown one that isn't a liar and a grifter. You do realize that they do it for the money don't you? The know no more and believe no more than you. They are just better sales people.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 654 of 853 (869399)
12-29-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by jar
12-29-2019 4:43 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
jar writes:

no value, no meaning, no charge, no morality, nothing but CON!

The value is having Christ accept you.
The morality should also stem from Him to us, but Baughman claims that this isnt happening.
Steve Baughman,from his book writes:

Thoughtful readers will spare me the “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” straw man. No skeptic worth her salt considers the absence of perfect Christians to be evidence against the truth of the religion. The claim is, rather, that if Christianity were true, Christians would be noticeably different around the things that matter, like money and integrity in business. They aren’t. Therefore, . . .

Baughman, Steve. Cover-Up in the Kingdom: Phone Sex, Lies, And God's Great Apologist, Ravi Zacharias . BookBaby. Kindle Edition.

Thus we have an argument there.
no charge
This really is it. The old Prep School Honor System Writ Large. I won't argue. We all can always do more.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 4:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 5:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 655 of 853 (869400)
12-29-2019 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by jar
12-29-2019 4:43 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Yeah. Wow. This is what religion has devolved to? Carny people running shell games?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 4:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by jar, posted 12-29-2019 5:41 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 656 of 853 (869401)
12-29-2019 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Phat
12-29-2019 5:03 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:

The value is having Christ accept you.

Another totally content-less bumper sticker. Phat why do you keep posting silly stuff like that?

Phat writes:

The morality should also stem from Him to us, but Baughman claims that this isnt happening.

No Phat, the morality can only be within you. But again, there is no evidence that Christians are more moral than any other segment of any population and lots of evidence that the so called Christian leaders and Apologists are far less moral than the average citizen.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 5:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 657 of 853 (869402)
12-29-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by Theodoric
12-29-2019 5:05 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Yeah, all of that is just Bill Bright, the guy that pushed the Campus Crusade generation. It was simply ******** then and is simply ******** still.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2019 5:05 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 658 of 853 (869415)
12-30-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 650 by Phat
12-29-2019 4:30 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:

OK lets start with a common one:
4 Spiritual Laws


What part of "bring it here" do you not understand?

Bring it here. Explain it in your own words. I've asked you to do that many, many times.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 659 of 853 (869418)
12-30-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by Phat
12-29-2019 4:38 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:

The basic teaching is shown in this diagram.


Besides being unreadable, that diagram explains nothing. It's just a reiteration of your empty belief. Where's the scripture to back it up?

Phat writes:

Whereupon ringo artfully dodges the responsibility that he hoists upon me:


Don't lie about me. I have never told you what you should do. I have only told you what Jesus told you to do.

Phat writes:

We were created with the freedom to rebel.


That's not an excuse for you to rebel against Jesus' teachings and then claim to "believe in Him".

Phat writes:

Jesus is the antidote to satan.


Then why don't you follow Him?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14582
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 660 of 853 (869460)
12-30-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by ringo
12-30-2019 10:46 AM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
ringo writes:

That's not an excuse for you to rebel against Jesus' teachings and then claim to "believe in Him".

I'll be honest with you. If Jesus really ment those specific words "sell all you have: for every Christian, I would not follow Him. You put me in the hot seat and I had to be honest. My faith must surely be weak, as is the faith of many "professors". Apologists indeed do get us off the hook, but then we are faced with answering the charges that we have made up our own religion.

Meanwhile, church armed guards are on the news saying that they "killed pure evil" by taking out a gunman in church with a shot to the head.

We truly live in crazy times. My jury is currently out again---I am considering much of the new information I have received.

Oh, and about Ravi: I read the entire book by atheist lawyer Richard Baughman. I conclude that while Ravi was deceptive, and was in fact guilty of initial lies and coverup, I conclude that the author of the book seemed to have a definite agenda of prosecuting Ravi fully and publically no matter the cost. Christians forgive their brothers and sisters and an indictment is not a forever thing. Secular people are tougher on people who lie or harm others, never again giving them an opportunity to repent or be redeemed.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 12-30-2019 10:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by jar, posted 12-30-2019 5:11 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 662 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2019 5:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 663 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2019 4:04 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 664 by ringo, posted 12-31-2019 11:09 AM Phat has responded

  
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