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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 766 of 853 (872425)
02-27-2020 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by Faith
02-27-2020 2:00 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
I said just about nothing you are imputing to me here.

I quoted you verbatim. You said that because of the Fall of Man humans are incapable of good works until they've been regenerated. I pointed out that salvation by grace through faith alone is that regenerative process... but you still seem to think that after this process that good works are still as "filthy rags." Good works CAN be used with ulterior motives, of course! But if your rationale for never doing anything on behalf of someone else is because it could be construed as boastful or self-serving, you are dead wrong about that. Over and over and over again the bible expects you, having now been filled with the Spirit under a new birth, to work out that salvation that was not earned but was freely given through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, as an expression of God's love for man. That is biblical through and through.

Good works can never equal salvation. No disagreement whatsoever. But faith alone helps no one. "Oh, I'll pray for you." Wow, awesome.... how about actually helping the person. Jesus said to do that.... his brother James also said to do that. So maybe you should listen to the King of Kings on the subject.

Have you clothed people who were cold? Have you fed people who were hungry? Did you visit those in prison? You are charged to do these things as evidence of your salvation.

quote:
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."


Does it say don't give to the needy at all? No, it says do give to the needy but don't make it a show and make it all about you.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 2:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:09 AM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 784 by Faith, posted 02-27-2020 12:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 767 of 853 (872426)
02-27-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 766 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2020 9:47 AM


Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
She likely will say that the Fall is true Biblical Christianity. I looked it up and verified that it (The fall) is widely claimed as Orthodox in Western Christianity. jar claims it is a huckster marketing tool, as does ringo, and both stick to an unorthodox yet literal reading of genesis 3.

If the concept was in fact a so-called marketing tool, that fact alone would indict the lions share of Western Christian thought...not simply a handful of PT Barnumesque apologists. I reject the concept not because it can be shown to be a literal interpretation but because the implications of such an interpretation make God out to be a myriad of characters in the book and not a cohesive eternal concept and belief.

Should that be the case, it shoots enough holes in the beliefs I was taught to deflate them. You claim that we are called to serve rather than be served, but Faith argues that we humans are incapable of such selfless and obsessive devotion without help from The Holy Spirit.

jar argues that *we* most certainly can and do perform good works based on the charge rather than the impartation by the Holy Spirit. To me, that differs little from altruism and good works in and of themselves and divorced from religion.

Tangle readily agrees.

That sort of "Christianity" doesn't set well with me. It makes Christianity so all-inclusive that it becomes simply a club that anyone can join through answering the charge, which is thus universal. It imparts no special favor or blessing to anyone who calls themselves Christian. It promises nothing after death in this life. It may well earn its members nothing more than merit badges of their own making. Yet in its defense, it can help many people in *this life.*

jar claims that none of us can know IF God blesses us further after this life is over. I would disagree only because that Hope is what my Belief mainly is. Had I no hope beyond evidence and secular sociological thinking, I may as well throw God away as well as Jesus. Either that or relegate them as simple characters in literature akin to any other folk hero. To which i say (as tangle would) Crap.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 9:47 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:45 AM Phat has responded
 Message 776 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 10:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 797 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 768 of 853 (872427)
02-27-2020 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 746 by Faith
02-26-2020 8:37 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Faith writes:

ringo writes:

The real question is what are you being "saved" from?


The real answer is: eternal damnation.

That doesn't answer the question. Who created eternal damnation?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:48 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 769 of 853 (872428)
02-27-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 767 by Phat
02-27-2020 10:09 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Phat writes:

jar claims it is a huckster marketing tool, as does ringo...


Actually, I call it a bold-faced lie.

Phat writes:

That sort of "Christianity" doesn't set well with me. It makes Christianity so all-inclusive that it becomes simply a club that anyone can join....


And you would prefer to keep people out.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:52 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 770 of 853 (872429)
02-27-2020 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 768 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:35 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Who created eternal damnation?
We did and we do. I know you think its no choice, but if you reject eternal salvation, you become eternally damned as a default since eternal damnation had to be created in order to allow for Satan which in essence allowed us to choose (and be responsible for our choice). You might argue that we should have been given the option to opt-out, but what you fail to understand is that humans cant and won't survive alone in this vast universe. You need wise guides to navigate the terrain.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:35 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:52 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 771 of 853 (872430)
02-27-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 769 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:45 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
ringo writes:

And you would prefer to keep people out

. No, I would insist that they make a choice before being allowed in. You cant join a club on your own terms.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 774 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:54 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 772 of 853 (872431)
02-27-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 770 by Phat
02-27-2020 10:48 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Who created eternal damnation?


We did and we do.

Then your god din't create the universe and everything in it.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 773 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 773 of 853 (872432)
02-27-2020 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 772 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:52 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
How so? I don't follow your logic.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:56 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 774 of 853 (872433)
02-27-2020 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 771 by Phat
02-27-2020 10:52 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Phat writes:

I would insist that they make a choice before being allowed in.


They do choose - whether they want in or not. You don't want to even give them that choice.

Phat writes:

You cant join a club on your own terms.


It's the members who set the terms.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 11:05 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 775 of 853 (872434)
02-27-2020 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Phat
02-27-2020 10:54 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Phat writes:

How so? I don't follow your logic.


WHAT?

What? What? What? What? What?

If your god didn't create eternal damnation, he didn't create everything in the universe. What could be clearer than that?


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 778 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 11:09 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 776 of 853 (872436)
02-27-2020 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 767 by Phat
02-27-2020 10:09 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Phat writes:

It imparts no special favor or blessing to anyone who calls themselves Christian. It promises nothing after death in this life. It may well earn its members nothing more than merit badges of their own making.

What does Jesus say in Matthew 25 or in Luke 4?

In both Jesus says it is NOT the ones who claim to be followers but rather all peoples even outside the Faith. Neither "Jews" (and remember Jesus was not a Christian) or those who claimed to follow him got special treatment including life after death.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 10:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 777 of 853 (872438)
02-27-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 774 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:54 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Heaven is not a democracy. Otherwise, we would be forced to let satan hang out there also.

IIRC, there was a war and he got evicted. Rightly so.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 11:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 781 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 11:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 778 of 853 (872439)
02-27-2020 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:56 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
ringo writes:

If your god didn't create eternal damnation, he didn't create everything in the universe. What could be clearer than that?

If by that you mean that He doesn't create your decisions, then yes, I agree. He created the possibility of evil. Humans still choose whether or not to actualize it. Some argue that we (or rather our earliest family) chose to actualize it, tainting the whole family lineage.

Others argue that we become the decisions we make on a daily basis. Thus we actualize our choice. What we cannot do is to opt-out and then claim that our choice should be comparably good along with the One we rejected.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 11:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 779 of 853 (872440)
02-27-2020 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 777 by Phat
02-27-2020 11:05 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Phat writes:

Heaven is not a democracy. Otherwise, we would be forced to let satan hang out there also.

Yet Jesus says it is those who claim to be followers who will not be allowed in.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 11:05 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by Phat, posted 02-27-2020 11:12 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 780 of 853 (872441)
02-27-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 779 by jar
02-27-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Could it be because they threw God away and claimed their own works as the necessary credentials?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 779 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 11:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 11:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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