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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member
Posts: 32966
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 811 of 853 (872501)
02-28-2020 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 810 by Phat
02-28-2020 8:12 AM


Re: No God Needed?
Phat writes:

For me personally, a disinterested aloof god would be superfluous.

Yet that is exactly the God described in Genesis 1.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Phat, posted 02-28-2020 8:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 812 of 853 (872505)
02-28-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 810 by Phat
02-28-2020 8:12 AM


Re: No God Needed?
Phat writes:

I would argue that experience has shaped my beliefs and shapes the beliefs of many people. Evidence is lacking. To me, this does not mean that there is no God.

Experience shapes everyone's belief - if you had no experience of Christianity you could not believe what you believe.

That has no bearing on whether a god exists or otherwise.

For you, the absence of evidence led to your conclusion of absence regarding God.

Nope, as I've said many times, I decided that there was no god because it became clear that the god I'd been taught to believe in was a pile of juvenile, made up crap. Total garbage.

I see that and so does GDR and Faith. I've noticed that Faith has a bit of an evangelistic bent lately as she is only basically saying to you that she knows not the day or the hour *But that God does* so keep an open mind. You, on the other hand, are willing to offer we believers a guarantee that nothing supernatural is ever going to happen and that you have faith in the obvious.

I'm just stateing the bleedin' obvious. Faith's views on the rapture are totally whacko.

More than enough? It seems that God Himself (Herself, Itself) would be a welcome addition and it is just the excess religious baggage connected with Him that you consider excessive. Or am I again wrong about how you think?

The superfluous comment is about belief not the existence of god. If - as GDR says - all that's necessary to get into heaven is to 'love thy neighbour', religion and belief is superfluous. People can do that anyway. In fact, we can't help ourselves mostly.

For me personally, a disinterested aloof god would be superfluous. An interactive supportive One would not.

Yeh, well Phat, as I've said before, this isn't about what *you* want or need; it's about what is.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Phat, posted 02-28-2020 8:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 10:53 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 813 of 853 (872517)
02-28-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by GDR
02-27-2020 5:37 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

... if service is only performed when there is going to be a benefit to the individual or the culture of the one doing the serving, then our world would be a much darker place than it already is.


Well, it isn't "only".

But in any case, service that benefits the server as well as the servee is, if anything, better than one-way service. Service in a restaurant is better if the waitress gets paid. Better than slavery.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by GDR, posted 02-27-2020 5:37 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 815 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 10:58 AM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 814 of 853 (872518)
02-28-2020 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by Tangle
02-28-2020 8:48 AM


Re: No God Needed?
Hi Tangle
This was a reply to Phat but the quote was from Phat but you used GDR.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 8:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 817 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 11:17 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 815 of 853 (872521)
02-28-2020 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
02-28-2020 10:39 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:

Well, it isn't "only".
But in any case, service that benefits the server as well as the servee is, if anything, better than one-way service. Service in a restaurant is better if the waitress gets paid. Better than slavery.

Well sure, but that isn't what we are talking about. That kind of service isn't about loving your neighbour or loving sacrificially. Knowing that your neighbour is struggling financially and then slipping a hundred dollar bill in his/her mail box anonymously is an act of sacrificial love.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 10:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 816 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 11:05 AM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 816 of 853 (872522)
02-28-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 815 by GDR
02-28-2020 10:58 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

That kind of service isn't about loving your neighbour or loving sacrificially.


Service is service. It's all about getting along together, cooperation.

Love does not have to be "sacrificial". That's just an excuse to shoehorn Jesus' death into the equation. He may have sacrificed His life but He didn't actually accomplish anything by doing it. He would have shown more love by tipping the waitress at the Last Supper.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 815 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 10:58 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 817 of 853 (872524)
02-28-2020 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by GDR
02-28-2020 10:53 AM


Re: No God Needed?
GDR writes:

This was a reply to Phat but the quote was from Phat but you used GDR.

Fixed, thanks


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 10:53 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 818 of 853 (872527)
02-28-2020 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by Tangle
02-28-2020 3:39 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Tangle writes:

Because we have an evolved brain and consciousness! You accept evolution, this is the result. We create the rules we live by and always have. There is no evidence that anything else has made us the way we are.

We know we evolved physically but there are only unevidenced theories such as yours about the evolution of consciousness.
However my point has always been that even if consciousness can be shown to have evolved it doesn't change anything. Once again, it is like looking at an automobile and claiming that the assembly line is the sole reason for its existence.

Tangle writes:

You tell us that loving each other is all that is required of us by your reading of your religious work, well I'm happy with that, I just find the need for a god superfluous.

Once again the point of being a Christian is not to be on the right side of God when you die. The point is that as a Christian you have faith that God has given you life and loves you and your neighbour. It hopefully makes you more open to that God meme and gives you a heart that wants to live a life based on my signature.

I can't find any stats on it, but I would bet that by far the most NGO aid that goes into the third world is from Christian organizations and individuals. The sponsors of Syrian, (usually Islamic by the way), refugees in this area were very nearly always Christian. This involved not just money but considerable time as well helping them get settled.

God is in all of that which makes God anything but superfluous. It is the vocation that God calls us to as humans and it isn't that non-Christians can't fulfill that vocation but I suggest that it is pretty clear that the Christian response is far greater than the response from those of other faiths or non-faiths.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 3:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 12:05 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 819 of 853 (872528)
02-28-2020 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by ringo
02-28-2020 11:05 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:

Service is service. It's all about getting along together, cooperation.
Love does not have to be "sacrificial". That's just an excuse to shoehorn Jesus' death into the equation. He may have sacrificed His life but He didn't actually accomplish anything by doing it. He would have shown more love by tipping the waitress at the Last Supper.

Aid to third world countries is not about co-operation it is about loving your neighbour sacrificially.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 11:05 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 821 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 12:14 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 820 of 853 (872529)
02-28-2020 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 818 by GDR
02-28-2020 11:33 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

However my point has always been that even if consciousness can be shown to have evolved it doesn't change anything.

For the sake of this argument, I agree. It doesn't matter whether our consciousness evolved (huge amount of evidence) or whether god planted it in us individually (absolutely no evidence at all, and a very large problem with arguments of freewill if he did, but never mind).

Given that we do have a conscience, however derived, and given that you claim that all that is asked of us by your god is for us to love each other, all the rest of your belief is redundant is it not?

Once again the point of being a Christian is not to be on the right side of God when you die. The point is that as a Christian you have faith that God has given you life and loves you and your neighbour. It hopefully makes you more open to that God meme and gives you a heart that wants to live a life based on my signature.

And I'm going to say yet again, so what? If I live a decent life, look after my neighbour etc, you say that's all that's required. I do not have to be a believing Christian to do all that - it's all totally unnecessary, and, incidentally a load of superstitious bunkum.

it isn't that non-Christians can't fulfill that vocation but I suggest that it is pretty clear that the Christian response is far greater than the response from those of other faiths or non-faiths.

Well that's one hell of an unsupported claim and is also irrelevant. Your argument now seems to be that christians are better at being nice people - an idea that is pretty disgusting and beneath you.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 818 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 11:33 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 822 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 821 of 853 (872530)
02-28-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 819 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:01 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

Aid to third world countries is not about co-operation it is about loving your neighbour sacrificially.


Foreign aid is only a tiny part of our international cooperation. We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:01 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:29 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 822 of 853 (872532)
02-28-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 820 by Tangle
02-28-2020 12:05 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Tangle writes:

Well that's one hell of an unsupported claim and is also irrelevant. Your argument now seems to be that christians are better at being nice people - an idea that is pretty disgusting and beneath you.

What I claimed was that the vast majority of NGO foreign aid is done by Christian organizations. I have never said that Christians are "nicer" than non-Christians. That is simply your term and not one I have ever used in this context.

I am simply saying that Christians are more likely to offer foreign aid to unknown neighbours than non-Christians, and used the refugee case as an example.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 820 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 12:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 824 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 12:51 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 823 of 853 (872533)
02-28-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 821 by ringo
02-28-2020 12:14 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:

Foreign aid is only a tiny part of our international cooperation. We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings.

..and just how well is that working out?

Our relatively small church provides about 60% of the support to provide a shelter, food and education for young women in Kampala. The reminder of the support comes from another church. We provide nearly all of the support to keep a library going in Addis. We provide money to the hospital for care as well as for the education of others in Uganda. We have fund raisers to provide funds for local agencies such as the food bank and hospital in our community.
We send money to a fund set up by our national church that provides aid where needed all over the world.

Frankly I don't see larger organizations such as the local service clubs doing anywhere near that and when they do they is usually a picture in the paper with them handing over a cheque to someone.

Certainly international co-operation is a good thing but more often than not that co-operation is about providing arms and often winds up leaving those countries with huge amounts of debt.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 12:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 826 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 7:28 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 824 of 853 (872534)
02-28-2020 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 822 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:17 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

What I claimed was that the vast majority of NGO foreign aid is done by Christian organizations.

Which is probably untrue and in any case irrelevant.

I have never said that Christians are "nicer" than non-Christians. That is simply your term and not one I have ever used in this context.

That's exacly what your claim translates too.

I am simply saying that Christians are more likely to offer foreign aid to unknown neighbours than non-Christians, and used the refugee case as an example.

That's not a neutral statement, you're saying it in an attempt to show that Christians are nicer people than others.

But this is all avoiding the core argument; even if it was actually true that christians were nicer people - or in your terms 'love more sacrificially' - it is still totally unnecessary to be one. Anyone can love others and behave decently to them. The god side of your proposition, particularly the christian god side, is redundant.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 825 of 853 (872535)
02-28-2020 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 824 by Tangle
02-28-2020 12:51 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Tangle writes:

Anyone can love others and behave decently to them. The god side of your proposition, particularly the christian god side, is redundant.

Sure, but if the Christian argument that all love is a result of God loving us is true, then God is anything but redundant.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 12:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by Tangle, posted 02-29-2020 9:45 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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