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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 826 of 853 (872570)
02-28-2020 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:29 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

ringo writes:

We gain far more than we "sacrifice" by getting along with our fellow earthlings.


..and just how well is that working out?

Pretty well. We can't grow bananas in Saskatchewan but we can get 'em. And as my father used to say, we can't eat all of the wheat we grow.

GDR writes:

Our relatively small church provides about 60% of the support to provide a shelter, food and education for young women in Kampala.


I don't think you're using a valid metric. Jesus Himself seemed to measure value not by how much you give but by how much you keep back for yourself - e.g. two mites is more than bags and bags of gold.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:29 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:32 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 827 of 853 (872576)
02-28-2020 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by ringo
02-28-2020 7:28 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:

Pretty well. We can't grow bananas in Saskatchewan but we can get 'em. And as my father used to say, we can't eat all of the wheat we grow.

..and yet we still have trade wars and even strikes so that the wheat doesn't always get to market.

ringo writes:

I don't think you're using a valid metric. Jesus Himself seemed to measure value not by how much you give but by how much you keep back for yourself - e.g. two mites is more than bags and bags of gold.


I agree with that but in our case we aren't a rich church.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 7:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by ringo, posted 02-28-2020 9:19 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 828 of 853 (872580)
02-28-2020 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 827 by GDR
02-28-2020 8:32 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

..and yet we still have trade wars and even strikes so that the wheat doesn't always get to market.


There aren't many things in the world that work perfectly all of the time. That's no reason to dismiss the value of social interaction.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:32 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 829 of 853 (872624)
02-29-2020 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by GDR
02-28-2020 12:55 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
GDR writes:

Sure,

So we agree that regardless of belief, 'all you need is love”.

but if the Christian argument that all love is a result of God loving us is true, then God is anything but redundant.

Given that all you need is love, the argument is not that god is redundant, it's that religion is redundant - including Christianity.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 12:55 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 830 of 853 (872640)
03-01-2020 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 829 by Tangle
02-29-2020 9:45 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Given that all you need is love, the argument is not that god is redundant, it's that religion is redundant - including Christianity.
Obviously this is true in your mind because in your mind God does not even exist. I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable. Perhaps if God did exist (in your mind) either you or He would have to go, thus avoiding redundancy.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by Tangle, posted 02-29-2020 9:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 2:34 PM Phat has responded
 Message 834 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 10:38 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 831 of 853 (872659)
03-01-2020 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by Phat
03-01-2020 10:49 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

Obviously this is true in your mind because in your mind God does not even exist.

It's not about me!!! It's about what your book says. GDR tells us that Jesus tells us love is all you need, therefore relious belief is redundant.

I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable.

That's not an argument, that's just you saying something you want to be true.

Perhaps if God did exist (in your mind) either you or He would have to go, thus avoiding redundancy.

Uh? It's not about me. Please follow the argument.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 832 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 832 of 853 (872664)
03-01-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by Tangle
03-01-2020 2:34 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
It's not about me!!! It's about what your book says.
And it's about how people (you, me, GDR) respond to what the book says. Otherwise, why bring it up? You cant walk into Faith & Belief and attempt to reduce belief to a verifiable science-based philosophy. If you had wanted this in a Science Forum I never would have commented at all. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 2:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 8:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 835 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 10:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7956
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 833 of 853 (872669)
03-01-2020 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by Phat
03-01-2020 3:16 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

And it's about how people (you, me, GDR) respond to what the book says.

Yes, by ignoring what it says and believing what you want to believe instead.

Otherwise, why bring it up? You cant walk into Faith & Belief and attempt to reduce belief to a verifiable science-based philosophy.

There's nothing scientific or philosophical in pointing out what Jesus says in your book.

If you had wanted this in a Science Forum I never would have commented at all. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs.

You're more than a little confused - this is not my thread.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 834 of 853 (872686)
03-02-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Phat
03-01-2020 10:49 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable.


Ever hear of idolatry? Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 9:35 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 835 of 853 (872688)
03-02-2020 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by Phat
03-01-2020 3:16 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs.


On the contrary, you can not form theories about anything based on beliefs. Theories are based on facts.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:16 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 836 of 853 (872715)
03-02-2020 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 834 by ringo
03-02-2020 10:38 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God.
Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 10:38 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:52 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 837 of 853 (872738)
03-03-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 836 by Phat
03-02-2020 9:35 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God.


Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as.

But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 836 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 9:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:40 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 838 of 853 (872746)
03-03-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by ringo
03-03-2020 10:52 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:

But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion.

OK, I'll go with that for now. I believe that there is no need for me to ask "which God" I am relating to as I believe that God wants me to seek Him and only the God with the power to draw me closer is, in fact, the real one. I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability. And I suppose that I could agree that my beliefs don't even require a God as they are products of my desires and imagination.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:45 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18800
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 839 of 853 (872747)
03-03-2020 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 838 by Phat
03-03-2020 11:40 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Phat writes:

I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability.


That's where I disagree with you. I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan.

But of course Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:40 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 2:13 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 840 of 853 (872753)
03-03-2020 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 839 by ringo
03-03-2020 11:45 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:

I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan.
But of course, Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God.

To sum up your point, you really mean that the easiest person to fool is ourselves. This is why I listen to varied points of view regarding God, religion, and other people's POV concerning the existence of and characteristics of God.

I've gone far deeper than many if not most Christians whom I know would have dared to go. I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty. I listened to several podcasts describing some honestly introspective deconversion experiences.

And of course, I endlessly discuss these things with you and jar even though I do not agree with your world view ideas that humans create God. I believe that God is also external to us as is Satan.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 839 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by ringo, posted 03-04-2020 2:20 PM Phat has responded

  
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