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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 257 (866022)
11-04-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
11-04-2019 11:59 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Why must I accept what Genesis 2-3 says as absolute truth the way that you present it? I have every right to interpret the book the way that I feel it should be interpreted. You can't hold my feet to the fire that you are creating by attempting to explain what a particular passage means.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 11:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:06 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 122 of 257 (866023)
11-04-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 11:56 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

Throw Your Evidence Away. It does not help the argument.


The evidence is the argument. Evidence always trumps belief.

Phat writes:

And mind you, the book is not the one on trial.


Your belief is on trial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 257 (866024)
11-04-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
11-04-2019 12:03 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Belief, In General, is on trial. And you too are a defendant. You cant simply knock down the whole concept of belief and proclaim evidence alone as the gold standard for humanity. How can we trust evidence that we ourselves create?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:09 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 124 of 257 (866025)
11-04-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:01 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

Why must I accept what Genesis 2-3 says as absolute truth the way that you present it?


It isn't something I'm "presenting". It's what it says. And nobody gives a flying fuck whether you accept it or not.

Phat writes:

I have every right to interpret the book the way that I feel it should be interpreted.


And I have every right to point out that your interpretation is made up.

Phat writes:

You can't hold my feet to the fire that you are creating by attempting to explain what a particular passage means.


I sure can. Watch me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:01 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 125 of 257 (866026)
11-04-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:05 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

How can we trust evidence that we ourselves create?


That's my question to you: Since your belief is made up - i.e. not based on scripture - i.e. often in direct contradiction of scripture - how can you trust it? As Jesus said, your house is built on sand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:05 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 257 (866027)
11-04-2019 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
11-04-2019 12:09 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
I was born again. May it please the court to tell the prosecutor to sit down? He is complicating the proceedings. Or do you consider yourself the judge, too? I can watch you make a mockery of the judicial system. You need to learn humility. That's why God even sits where he sits. You are not Jesus. And the Judge sits over there. He is not some character in a book.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:17 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 127 of 257 (866028)
11-04-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:14 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

I was born again. May it please the court to tell the prosecutor to sit down? He is complicating the proceedings. Or do you consider yourself the judge, too? I can watch you make a mockery of the judicial system. You need to learn humility. That's why God even sits where he sits. You are not Jesus. And the Judge sits over there. He is not some character in a book.


Stop preaching. Discuss the topic honestly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:19 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 257 (866029)
11-04-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
11-04-2019 12:17 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
I am being honest. God is not made up. Unless the prosecution has evidence to the contrary, I suggest they need a recess. With the court's permission, of course.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 133 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 12:30 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 129 of 257 (866030)
11-04-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 11:49 AM


Re: Ringos Ongoing attempt to win an argument using a book
And I have to ask if you are really familiar with the Barmen Declaration? Like the much later Chicago Declarations it begins and end by simply declaring things to be "Truths" without even an attempt at providing evidence to support such positions.

Do you really think you understand Karl Barth?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:25 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 130 of 257 (866031)
11-04-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

I am being honest. God is not made up.


You believe that God is not made up.

It is a fact that God is a character in a book. You can believe that he is something more, but that is only a belief, like the belief in Tooth Fairies or unicorns.

Phat writes:

Unless the prosecution has evidence to the contrary, I suggest they need a recess.


I don't need a recess. So far, you haven't presented much of a case. Maybe you should stop being so arrogant about your apologetics and actually present something of substance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:27 PM ringo has responded
 Message 134 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 257 (866032)
11-04-2019 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
11-04-2019 12:20 PM


Re: Ringos Ongoing attempt to win an argument using a book
Not fully, but I can learn. As you know, I consider this whole argument of using evidence only useful once we can agree on what is being presented. I am under no illusion that Biblical Christianity (the way most of us think) can be proven. My contention is with the (in my opinion) warped attempt to use the book to prove a counter theology. You disguise it as Christianity, but it is not.

Can I prove it? No. Does the book contain evidence to support ringos case? Yes and No. The book can be used to make any argument.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 12:20 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 12:32 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 257 (866033)
11-04-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
11-04-2019 12:24 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
You believe that God is not made up.
It is a fact that God is a character in a book. You can believe that he is something more, but that is only a belief, like the belief in Tooth Fairies or unicorns.
I have no problem with that. Like I told jar, belief can not be proven. My contention is ith both of your assertions that apologetics is not honest. By what standard is honesty judged? In what context? And in what venue?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:40 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 133 of 257 (866034)
11-04-2019 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:19 PM


Every God or god is made up!
Phat writes:

I am being honest. God is not made up. Unless the prosecution has evidence to the contrary, I suggest they need a recess.

What does the evidence show Phat?

Look at the Bible and try to count how man different and mutually exclusive gods are found. The God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and the God of Exodus are all mutually exclusive.

The God of Genesis 1 ia apart, aloof and has no contact at all with the things created.

The God of Genesis 2&3 is more the feudal lord, powerful and demanding but also approachable and very human.

The God of Exodus is the voice from off camera, something that cannot even be looked upon and where you have to take your shoes off just to listen.

Each has entirely different senses of morality, different personalities, different mannerisms, different patterns of morality.

What evidence shows they are not each "simply made up"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 1:00 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 257 (866035)
11-04-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
11-04-2019 12:24 PM


Re: Bart Campolo
ringo writes:

Maybe you should stop being so arrogant about your apologetics and actually present something of substance.

I will admit that I am arrogant about God. I lift Him up. I disagree with atheism. But I respect the right of atheists to be atheists and secular humanists to be secular. As I have shown (but which you likely cannot listen to) I am listening to several secular humanists who don't believe.

My point of contention with you and jar is that you ruin the story by making the snake out to be a hero and God out to be flawed. That isn't Christianity, but it does make for an interesting discussion.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:47 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 135 of 257 (866036)
11-04-2019 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 12:25 PM


Re: Ringos Ongoing attempt to win an argument using a book
Phat writes:

As you know, I consider this whole argument of using evidence only useful once we can agree on what is being presented.

Can we not each read what is actually written?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:25 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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