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Author Topic:   Atheists must appeal to an absolute moral standard when complaining about wrongs.
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 71 (865119)
10-21-2019 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
10-20-2019 6:31 PM


If, as atheists claim, morality is relative, then by definition there is no absolute standard of right and wrong. Thus, atheists have no basis for complaining about moral wrongs, because they cannot appeal to anything to prove that it is wrong. All they can do is appeal to their own feelings, but without an absolute standard their feelings don't matter, because only an absolute standard can say that the feelings of humans beings ought to matter to every other human being. When the morals of one human contradict the morals of another human, which human is right, since there is no absolute standard? If they both are offended, whose feelings do we base our morals on?

How would you set about proving which morals are based on absolutes and which are based on fallible human feewings?

Murder (unlawful killing) is pretty unanimously deemed as immoral. Probably the closest thing you're going to ever get to in terms of absolute morality. Where things get tricky is determining what constitutes murder. One man's murder is another man's righteous execution.

So even with moral absolutes nothing gets resolved. If morality was so obviously absolute then no one would ever violate them now would they?

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Christian7, posted 10-20-2019 6:31 PM Christian7 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 71 (865383)
10-24-2019 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
10-22-2019 11:22 AM


Re: We Decide - Not You
For the reality of it all you need to accept the Biblical view: our spirituality, like our intellect, is fallen which means distorted. It's going to be distorted in lots of different ways because we lost our connection with God at the Fall and became subject to both our own fleshly misperceptions and the influences of the "gods" who are really demons.

How is God not implicated in all of that? "Fallen" by creating a self-admitted impossible standard -- just as Jesus stated, "No, not even one" can achieve moral perfection.

God creates man and imputes all of those self-imposed frailties and then gets pissed off when those imperfections manifest, uh, that he created. And before you say he didn't because he gave us freewill, he sure as hell did because according to the bible nothing exists apart from Him. He created the frailty, he created the ability to sin and, make no mistake, he created sin itself.

And "lost our connection?" Seems like it lasted 15 minutes as it was jacked up by literally the first people ever on earth which, by the way, we all get to pay for. Sins of the father, aye... and great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather.

I'm just glad He doesn't hold a grudge

If were Fallen its because he made it so -- The illusion of freewill.

Or you can just come to the eventual realization that its all a bunch of bullshit, smoke and mirrors in a feeble attempt to rationalize human nature.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 10-22-2019 11:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 2:59 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 57 of 71 (865387)
10-24-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
10-24-2019 2:59 AM


Re: We Decide - Not You
Well, you have the choice of free will which leaves us susceptible to sin and therefore the inexorable dealings of the Moral Law which can be pretty harsh, or absolutely determined moral perfection without any free will to sin. God chose the former, would you have chosen otherwise?

God, in all of his omnipotence, could have created man with ability to desire, say, only one woman the way he says he intended. But instead he makes an attraction to women in general and then gets pissed if you have wandering eyes. God gives us anger and says its literally the same thing as murder. That's some freewill... its like saying we have the choice to breathe air or not. Its true, you could choose not to breathe by holding your breath... but the consequence is death. And even so, the autonomic system is so powerful (that he created, btw) that it would disallow you to stop breathing. But the choice is ours, right?

That's the kind of "freewill" we're actually up against... and that's really no freewill at all... just the illusion of it.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 10-24-2019 2:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

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