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Author Topic:   Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 241 of 308 (867294)
11-23-2019 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
11-23-2019 9:42 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
The Fall is implicit in what happened to them, their hiding from God, knowing they were naked, and their expulsion from the Garden to toil as they'd never had to before. But it is explicit in the New Testament where Paul says it was sin that brought death into the world.

I know all your arguments but they hold no water in the context of Christian history.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 9:42 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 10:39 AM Faith has responded
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 11:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 242 of 308 (867297)
11-23-2019 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:08 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

But it is explicit in the New Testament where Paul says it was sin that brought death into the world.

Yes, Paul is supposed to have said that; but he offered no evidence in support and it is absolutely clear and unequivocal that Death existed BEFORE Adam and Eve ate the fruit based on what is actually written in Genesis 2&3 as opposed to the fantasy that your cult tries to market.

Have you ever read the Bible Faith?

What was the second tree mentioned?

If Death did not already exist then that tree was simply another really stupid creation like the human eye and the missing padding on shins and elbows and putting the air channel and food channel together.

But again, please stop misrepresenting what is actually written in the Bible and do try to return to the topic, as silly as it is.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:51 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 243 of 308 (867299)
11-23-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Thugpreacha
11-22-2019 4:54 PM


Re: Christian fundamentalim is abhorrent
Phat writes:

In our analogy, they are not yet even IN the house. They (we) are being considered for adoption.


That doesn't work. Jesus told us to pray, "Our Father," so we are already his children. I don't think the "adoption" mentioned in your apologist quotes is what we think of adoption today.

Phat writes:

How was jesus not a good example? Certainly better than Chutulu or loki.


You're not setting the bar very high.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-22-2019 4:54 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 244 of 308 (867300)
11-23-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
11-23-2019 10:39 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
the Tree of Llfe refers to eternal llfe, not earthly llfe. That is why God had it guarded after the Fall, since eternal llfe in our sinful condition would make us llke Satan himself, and if we are mrely mortal we can be saved as Satan can't be.

Seems to me you are the one who misrepresents the Byble and really needs to learn a few things.

But I believe it's too late for you, and yes I'd llke to return to the topic which is one of the best articles written on what we are suffering through these days.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 10:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 11:05 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 256 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:24 AM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 245 of 308 (867301)
11-23-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
11-23-2019 9:01 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Faith writes:

At least if you're going to keep putting down Christianity you should put it down for what it actually says.


There are a lot of discrepancies between what the Bible says and what "Christianity" says and what you say. You're talking about one minority cult of Christianity.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 9:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:00 AM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 246 of 308 (867302)
11-23-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
11-23-2019 9:01 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
All gods are local and each is recognized as universal by its own adherents. Your puny little local monkey of a god is no exception though with yours you portray it as being more violent and capricious than the others. Abraham and all the priests that followed him through the millennia were Jim Jones / David Koresh type psychopaths and the end product reflects the poison of their minds.

You say that all disease, greed, murder and all other evil came from this fall. In your cult who created this world? Who created the capacity for the evil we see in life all around us today? Who made an idyllic world of beauty and pleasure only to take it all away because someone ate a piece of god damned fruit! Who does your cult say has infinite love and infinite forgiveness yet threw his beloved creation from idyllic Eden into a world of disease and bloodshed and all the depraved and morbid conditions we know as life? Who does your cult say has infinite love and infinite forgiveness yet will mercilessly torture his beloved creation for all eternity because they offend his ego?

As with Thug, you believe such a cosmic tyrant exists? You praise, venerate, pray to and love such a monster? Willingly?

Talking snake my ass! What the hell is the matter with you people?

Sorry, M’Love. You hit a hot button.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 9:01 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:56 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:40 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 247 of 308 (867303)
11-23-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by AZPaul3
11-23-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Sin caused everything you impute to God. He made everything good, but He also gave us the free will to choose against Him and we did and that's the whole catastrophe. When a creature puts itself at odds with the Creator of all things the whole fabric of existence comes apart at the seams. Your hot button is misplaced. Maybe it's stuck to your butt?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2019 10:52 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:05 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 248 of 308 (867304)
11-23-2019 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
11-23-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
I'm talking about the same Christianity Pascal, who was a Catholic although a conservative Catholic who was more **** a Protestant really, the same Christianity he said we should understand before we criticize it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 10:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 11:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 249 of 308 (867305)
11-23-2019 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:08 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

But it is explicit in the New Testament where Paul says it was sin that brought death into the world.

quote:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Of course sin entered the world by one man because there was only one man in the story. That's how we know it's only a story, because there has never been a time when there was only one man in the world. Biology just doesn't work that way.

As for death, even in the story we know Adam and Eve didn't die a physical death that same day. You claim they died a "spiritual" death but why do you stretch that to them causing physical death of animals?


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15637
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 250 of 308 (867306)
11-23-2019 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:56 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
Sin caused everything you impute to God.

Not really. First you claim to be a Calvinist, so both the sin and the effects are by God’s choice. Even if you give up on Calvinism the effects have to be God’s choice. (Oh, and the Cosmic Tyrant is definitely an apt description of the Calvinist God - are you claiming that atheists made up Calvinism)

quote:
When a creature puts itself at odds with the Creator of all things the whole fabric of everything comes apart at the seams.

Well-made objects aren’t fragile like that. Either this “coming apart at the seams” is intentional or very poor design or workmanship.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:12 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:18 AM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 251 of 308 (867307)
11-23-2019 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:51 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

Seems to me you are the one who misrepresents the Byble and really needs to learn a few things.


I had to quote this.

I know you've never heard of irony but I think it's funny that you have to misrepresent the Bible as "Byble" to talk about misrepresenting the Bible.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 252 of 308 (867308)
11-23-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:00 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Faith writes:

I'm talking about the same Christianity Pascal, who was a Catholic although a conservative Catholic who was more **** a Protestant really....


Well, a Protestant would be a liberal Catholic.

Faith writes:

... the same Christianity he said we should understand before we criticize it.


Few people understand Christianity less than you do.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 253 of 308 (867309)
11-23-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by PaulK
11-23-2019 11:05 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Calvinism says nothing can happen without God's willing it and empowering it but it also says the creature does what it does quite freely by its own felt choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:05 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:24 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 254 of 308 (867313)
11-23-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by PaulK
11-23-2019 11:05 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Well-made objects aren’t fragile **** that. Either this “coming apart at the seams” is intentional or very poor design or workmanship.

We're talking about a spiritual force that is not part of the original creation but arose in opposition to it. It would create an incredible tension in the fabric of things. God cannot be in opposition to Himself, He cannot sin, but He made it possible for that to be the condition of the mind of his intelligent creature. He gave us this power to oppose the Creator of the universe, pretty heady stuff.

This is a mystery beyond our ability to understand, however. I'm doing what I can with it but at some point humility decrees that we don't get it and can't get it really.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:05 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15637
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 255 of 308 (867315)
11-23-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:12 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
Calvinism says nothing can happen without God's willing it and empowering it but it also says the creature does what it does quite freely by its own felt choice.

The first part is all that matters - according to Calvin both the sin and the “coming apart at the seams” are by God’s intent from the start. Free choices are not sufficient to overcome that, even If those choices were utterly free of God and his influence.

However, they are not utterly free. God is responsible for both the nature of the creatures and the situations in which they find themselves - as well as the outcomes of those choices.

Manipulating people into making “free choices” is not nearly sufficient to absolve the manipulator - even when the manipulator lacks the power to control the outcome as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:12 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:36 AM PaulK has responded

  
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