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Author Topic:   Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 256 of 308 (867316)
11-23-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
11-23-2019 10:51 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

the Tree of Llfe refers to eternal llfe, not earthly llfe.

Yet another profitable con job but once again, simply not supported by what is written in the Genesis 2&3 story.

Faith writes:

That is why God had it guarded after the Fall, since eternal llfe in our sinful condition would make us llke Satan himself, and if we are mrely mortal we can be saved as Satan can't be.

And the snake-oil continues.

That is NOT why the Garden was guarded according to what is actually written in Genesis 2&3 and another creation of thye Apoligists to try to make the Bible fit the Go0d and Story they created.

And so far there has been no evidence presented to explain why people fear the left or that the fear of the left is a driving force in the west today.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 10:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:27 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 257 of 308 (867317)
11-23-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by jar
11-23-2019 11:24 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Doesn't it say the Tree of Llfe was guarded against us "Lest they take of the tree of llfe and llve forever?" Eternal llfe right there.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:24 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:43 AM Faith has responded
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 12:01 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 15637
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 258 of 308 (867319)
11-23-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:18 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
We're talking about a spiritual force that is not part of the original creation but arose in opposition to it

But which according to Calvinism is part of the design for the creation. And how could a “spiritual force” simply arise?

quote:
It would create an incredible tension in the fabric of things

You suggest that it is beyond God’s capabilities to make a universe capable of resisting this assumed “spiritual force”?

quote:
God cannot be in opposition to Himself, He cannot sin, but He made it possible for that to be the condition of the mind of his intelligent creature. He gave us this power to oppose the Creator of the universe, pretty heady stuff.

According to Calvinism God required those sins, he made it necessary that they occur. All sin is by God’s will and intent.

quote:
This is a mystery beyond our ability to understand, however. I'm doing what I can with it but at some point humility decrees that we don't get it and can't get it really.

It really isn’t. You just want a contradiction. You want God to be in complete control, but you don’t want God to be responsible for the bad things. You can’t have both.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 259 of 308 (867320)
11-23-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by PaulK
11-23-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Basically what Calvinism means by our not having free will is just that we don't have the ability to choose righteously because our minds are fallen. That's what the principle of totqal Depravity means. What we think is good isn't good by God's standards. "All our righteousness is as filthy rags" says Isaiah. But Calvin never denied that we don't have the free will to make daily innocuous choices, chocolate versus vanilla or whether to take the cruise to Alaska or to Portugal or whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:24 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2019 11:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 260 of 308 (867321)
11-23-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by AZPaul3
11-23-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
Actually "all gods are NOT recognized as universal" by their adherents. If you know the Byble at all you know that gods are identified by the people they are the gods of. But I don't think you need the Byble for that either, we know that Krisha is a god of India, Horus is a god of Egypt and so on. No they are not treated as universal, they are tribal gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by AZPaul3, posted 11-23-2019 10:52 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 261 of 308 (867322)
11-23-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:27 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

Doesn't it say the Tree of Llfe was guarded against us "Lest they take of the tree of llfe and llve forever?" Eternal llfe right there.

LOL

Once again you misrepresent what is actually written by quote mining and taking stuff out of context.

quote:
Genesis 3:22-24

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


Notice no mention of man becoming like satan, rather that man had become as one of us.

True. the Apologists try hard to pervert the Bible and twist it to be the story THEY created but we can still check their spiel by actually reading what is written.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:46 AM jar has responded
 Message 267 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 1:48 PM jar has responded
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 2:16 PM jar has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15637
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 262 of 308 (867323)
11-23-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:36 AM


Re: Cosmic Tyrant an invention of atheists
quote:
Basically what Calvinism means by our not having free will is just that we don't have the ability to choose righteously because our minds are fallen

Which I have not discussed - nor is it relevant since Adam and Eve supposedly had unfallen minds. Let us deal with the points I have raised rather than haring off after irrelevancies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 263 of 308 (867324)
11-23-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by jar
11-23-2019 11:43 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
reading in context is generally a good thing. You might learn how to do that. that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:43 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 264 of 308 (867325)
11-23-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:46 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
And so you once again offer no support for your position.

Now is there any evidence that Fear of the Left the driving force in the west today beyond the rantings of the Alt-Right Apologists?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 265 of 308 (867327)
11-23-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
11-23-2019 11:27 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

Doesn't it say the Tree of Llfe was guarded against us "Lest they take of the tree of llfe and llve forever?" Eternal llfe right there.


The tree was guarded to prevent them from having eternal life - i.e. they did not have eternal life - they were subject to death right from the beginning.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 11:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 1:39 PM ringo has responded
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 2:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 266 of 308 (867328)
11-23-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
11-23-2019 12:01 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
The tree was only "guarded" once they ate from the other tree. Clearly eternal life and "knowledge" did not go hand in hand.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:11 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 308 (867331)
11-23-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by jar
11-23-2019 11:43 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Notice no mention of man becoming like satan, rather that man had become as one of us.
The implication is clearly there. First off, if they truly were "as one of us" they would in fact have eternal life. The implication was that this particular critter was likely foreknown to disobey and eat the tree of knowledge before they were ready for it. Thus begins the long storied history of humans. Wars, famines, betrayals, greed, lusts, all of the dicey realities that knowledge has brought us. Granted we have discovered some new and useful things also, but I believe that this story will not end up successfully since by and large humans still reject God. Nowadays they claim He is a human invention of our minds. Brushing aside that reality will ultimately lead to our demise. And yes there are carny barksters and apologist hucksters, but that is not the default position of Biblical Christianity.

Your view may seem more logical and likely to you on the surface, but you forget that we are indeed fallible and prone to error. had we listened to God from Day One it would not be that way. I will admit, however, that He foreknew this to happen. Perhaps He also foreknows that a sizeable proportion of you wont believe the stories sold by the CCoI. It too is foreknown.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:43 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 1:55 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 268 of 308 (867332)
11-23-2019 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 1:48 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Phat writes:

First off, if they truly were "as one of us" they would in fact have eternal life.

No Phat, once again you are simply misrepresenting what was actually written to try to make it fit into in Bible you created.

Phat writes:

Your view may seem more logical and likely to you on the surface, but you forget that we are indeed fallible and prone to error. had we listened to God from Day One it would not be that way.

Utter nonsense Phat and certainly not in what is actually written in the Genesis 2&3 fable.

Phat writes:

I will admit, however, that He foreknew this to happen.

And you continue to market the God you create instead of the God that is actually described in the story.

Phat writes:

Perhaps He also foreknows that a sizeable proportion of you wont believe the stories sold by the CCoI.

When the stories marketed by the CCoI do not correspond to what is actually written it would be foolish to believe them.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 1:48 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 2:03 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 308 (867335)
11-23-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
11-23-2019 1:55 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
And you continue to market the God you create instead of the God that is actually described in the story.
Indeed I do. I refuse to accept a God that is hesitant, unsure, and in need of correction by humans. To me, that simply places humans as their own judge and responsible fully for their own salvation and justification. And that I will not accept.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 1:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 2:21 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 270 of 308 (867337)
11-23-2019 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
11-23-2019 12:01 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
As Phat said, they NO LONGER had eternal llfe after they disobeyed God. As God had said, if they disobeyed they would die, they had become mortal. So to prevent them from living forever in their fallen condition God kept them away from the Tree of Llfe.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 11-23-2019 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:14 PM Faith has responded

  
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