Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8951 total)
39 online now:
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 866,985 Year: 22,021/19,786 Month: 584/1,834 Week: 84/500 Day: 42/42 Hour: 9/8


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Dominant Force in West Today According to Dennis Prager is Fear of Left
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 271 of 308 (867338)
11-23-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by jar
11-23-2019 11:43 AM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Notice no mention of man becoming **** satan, rather that man had become as one of us.

They would have become llke Satan if they'd eaten of the Tree of Llfe in their condition as sinners, immortal and evll at the same time and without any hope of salvation. I think Phat may have said this too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 11:43 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 11-23-2019 2:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 272 of 308 (867339)
11-23-2019 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 2:03 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Phat writes:

jar writes:

And you continue to market the God you create instead of the God that is actually described in the story.

Indeed I do. I refuse to accept a God that is hesitant, unsure, and in need of correction by humans. To me, that simply places humans as their own judge and responsible fully for their own salvation and justification. And that I will not accept.

Yet that is exactly what is written in the Bible Stories.

You worship the God you created and not what is described in many of the Bible stories.

And no one has yet shown any evidence that "Fear of the Left the driving force in the west today ".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 2:03 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 273 of 308 (867340)
11-23-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
11-23-2019 2:16 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

They would have become llke Satan if they'd eaten of the Tree of Llfe in their condition as sinners, immortal and evll at the same time and without any hope of salvation.

Yes Faith, that is the story you and the Apologists make up, but is NOT what is written in Genesis 2&3.

And you still have offered no evidence that "Fear of the Left the driving force in the west today".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 2:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 274 of 308 (867386)
11-24-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2019 1:39 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Phat writes:

The tree was only "guarded" once they ate from the other tree. Clearly eternal life and "knowledge" did not go hand in hand.


Clearly.

But that's not the point. The point is that the tree was guarded to prevent them from obtaining eternal life ("lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22). They did not have eternal life. They didn't know about death until they had the knowledge of good and evil but death was in the world. They would have died anyway many years later.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2019 1:39 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 275 of 308 (867389)
11-24-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
11-23-2019 2:12 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Phat writes:

As Phat said, they NO LONGER had eternal llfe....


I know what Phat said but that's not what the Bible says. Eternal life was something to be obtained by eating from the Tree of Life. Thus it could not have been something they already had.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 11-23-2019 2:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:23 PM ringo has responded
 Message 283 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 3:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 276 of 308 (867394)
11-24-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
11-24-2019 1:14 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
They had eternal llfe before the fall and eating of the Tree of Llfe, which was permittex then, apparently sustained it somehow, I'm not sure if anyone really understands this, but after the Fall they had changed, they had lost their connection to God, they were now "mere flesh" without eternal llfe and eating of that tree at that point would have set their sin in concrete as it were so that they could never regain their former status. Through Christ's sacrifice for us, however, we will now have an eternal llfe that cannot be lost.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:35 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 277 of 308 (867398)
11-24-2019 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
11-24-2019 1:23 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

They had eternal llfe before the fall and eating of the Tree of Llfe, which was permittex then, apparently sustained it somehow....


That's complete fiction, made up, unscriptural. There is no reason to think they had ever eaten from the Tree of Life.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 278 of 308 (867403)
11-24-2019 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by ringo
11-24-2019 1:35 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
there is every reason to believe it because it was not forbidden to them. In fcct God explicitly said they could eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evll.

I looked up that verse but Blue Letter Byble has changed its phormat and I'm unable to see to navigate it. Google is too hard for my eyes as well.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:08 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 279 of 308 (867404)
11-24-2019 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
11-24-2019 1:55 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

there is every reason to believe it because it was not forbidden to them.


That isn't "every" reason. It's barely one possible reason. But there is no reason to think they ate from every tree except the one forbidden tree. At best, it's a completely unsupported speculation. There is certainly no justification for making a whole doctrine of it.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 1:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 2:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 280 of 308 (867405)
11-24-2019 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ringo
11-24-2019 2:08 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Oh get real. If they knew what all the trees wer for, which of course they did, then they are going to eat of the Tree of Llfe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:18 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17665
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 281 of 308 (867409)
11-24-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Faith
11-24-2019 2:10 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Faith writes:

If they knew what all the trees wer for, which of course they did....


Of course they didn't. They didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil. They didn't know that death was something to be avoided so they had no particular reason to eat from the Tree of Life.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 2:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 2:46 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 3:45 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 282 of 308 (867410)
11-24-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
11-24-2019 2:18 PM


There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3! or any evidence to support the topic
Regardless of Faith's really silly most recent unsupported assertion, what is actually written and what has even been quoted in this and many other threads and what is actually written in Genesis 3 is...

quote:
Gen 3:22

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


"lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life"

"lest " Meaning with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.

Not with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of it happening again.

Everything in the story says that neither Adam nor Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life by the end of the story.

And as expected, Faith has still not provided any evidence to support the topic "Fear of the Left the driving force in the west today".

It seems Carny Apologists are not limited to Religious Fantasies.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:18 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-24-2019 3:46 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 308 (867414)
11-24-2019 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
11-24-2019 1:14 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
ringo writes:

Eternal life was something to be obtained by eating from the Tree of Life. Thus it could not have been something they already had.

OK, I'll go with your argument. But so what? God told them they would die. The snake told them they would not die. Did they die?

And are humans now like God in that we know good and evil and we all are free to interpret what these terms each mean? You liberals certainly try and market the God you want. A nice touchy-feely God who accepts everybody as they are, requires no sanctification or surrender or change from them whatsoever but only expects that they work hard for the community like good little Marxists? Disgusting.

Any replies to this post please put the religious-themed ones in one of the other threads. The only political point I make is that the Left interprets the words of Jesus as arguably Marxist.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 11-25-2019 10:59 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33870
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 284 of 308 (867416)
11-24-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
11-24-2019 2:18 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3!
Oh they knew WHAT the knowledge of good and evll was, they did have basic intellectual knowledge, they had to in order to understand that God forbade it. What they didn't have was full experiential knowledge that comes from experience, and unfortunately that's what they got when they disobeyed and ate the forbidden fruit.

============================

Just a note for anyone who still doesn't get it: it doesn't matter WHAT God forbade, the original sin wasn't about that, it was the fcct of DISOBEDIENCE that brought about the Fall. Somehow some Catholics got the idea what was forbidden was sex. Which makes no sense because there were only two of them at the time and they were a married couple.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 11-24-2019 2:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 11-25-2019 11:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13371
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 308 (867417)
11-24-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
11-24-2019 2:46 PM


Re: There is no Fall in Genesis 2&3! or any evidence to support the topic
jar. ad nauseum writes:

And as expected, Faith has still not provided any evidence to support the topic "Fear of the Left the driving force in the west today".

*sigh*. OK, everybody jar has a point. Lets abandon this religious argument in this thread and leave it to be the political thread it was intended to be.
Take quotes from here and put them in one of the other threads where the religious argument is happily burning away.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 11-24-2019 2:46 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 11-24-2019 3:49 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019