Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8950 total)
26 online now:
caffeine, PaulK, Tangle, vimesey (4 members, 22 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,077 Year: 22,113/19,786 Month: 676/1,834 Week: 176/500 Day: 4/69 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   White skin and blue eyes origin.
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6883
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 46 of 73 (866568)
11-12-2019 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
11-12-2019 3:28 PM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
All I was doing was presenting the original source to all knowledge we have about the celebration that is no referred to as the first Thanksgiving. It was not called that at the time.
I don't give a rat's ass if you read it. It is a very interesting historical nugget that I chose to share. All the ideas we have about what was eaten, what was said and even who was there are for the most part wrong. Any painting you see of this event is wrong.
Use the info if you want or ignore it. I don't care.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 3:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 4:02 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 11-12-2019 5:31 PM Theodoric has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 73 (866569)
11-12-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Theodoric
11-12-2019 3:49 PM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
I don't trust anything you say, that's the bottom ****.

Either produce some of the content or don't. I don't care either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2019 3:49 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 48 of 73 (866571)
11-12-2019 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
11-12-2019 2:48 PM


American Genocide
I do not really care what the debatable history of the Thanksgiving holiday entails. There is the more important matter of its contemporary meaning as seen by an entire segment of the captured native populations.

We have a large population of Apache and Navajo in Arizona. Their view of this white man's holiday is quite different from that of the society that has systematically impoverished and deliberately exterminated their peoples and their cultures over these last 300 years.

My avatar honors their view. If that reality makes some people upset then it has achieved its goal.

Thank you for noticing.

Edited by AZPaul3, : title


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 2:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 6:26 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-12-2019 7:44 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Percy
Member
Posts: 19086
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 49 of 73 (866572)
11-12-2019 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Theodoric
11-12-2019 3:49 PM


Re: Impatience Is Not A Virtue
I think Faith is confused and thinks you're denying that any Indians were at the feast where they could "after a more special manner rejoice together" that is today called the First Thanksgiving. The Letter-Winslow 1621 — MayflowerHistory.com you linked to says that Indians were there:

quote:
We exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest King Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and bestowed on our governor, and upon the captain, and others.

So I didn't think you were telling Faith she was wrong, but she seemed to believe you were. I thought you were only pointing out that despite the First Thanksgiving that relations between the colonists and the Indians quickly deteriorated, much to their detriment.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2019 3:49 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2019 5:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6883
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 50 of 73 (866575)
11-12-2019 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Percy
11-12-2019 5:31 PM


Willful ignorance is not a virtue
The persecution complex is large in that group of people and Faith in particular. I was attempting to give some historical background explaining why natives do not get so misty eyed over Thanksgiving. Which in reality is a made up holiday and in reality has nothing to do with the feast at Plimouth plantation.
Faith is proud of her ignorance. She revels in it. She has no desire to rise above her ignorance. But there are a lot of lurkers. If I can help them remove some of their ignorance, I will and I will feel good about it.
I have learned a lot of things I was profoundly ignorant of by participating on this forum. I hope others that participate here have also. I also hope the lurkers have removed some of their own ignorance and have learned from what I and others have posted.

Thank you for providing such a wonderful forum to discuss the myriad of ideas we discuss. At times it feels like I am stepping into a tavern and meeting with the locals when I come here.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 11-12-2019 5:31 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 6:17 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 51 of 73 (866576)
11-12-2019 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
11-12-2019 5:57 PM


Re: Willful ignorance is not a virtue
STOP TALKING ABOUT ME. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME AT ALL, AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TALK ABOUT ME ANYWAY. THIS IS A TAVERN FOR ******** ONLY, IT CERTAINLY ISN'T FOR SOME OF US.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2019 5:57 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 52 of 73 (866577)
11-12-2019 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 5:12 PM


Anti-American Propaganda,
I'm sick of all the anti-American propaganda and that's all your avatar represents to me. And all you are doing is repeating all the propaganda points. The history is far more complex than that. In fact history is in general far more complex than anything ******** say about any of it, which is ALL propaganda, all manufactured ************ Marixist lies.

Gosh isn't it interesting how ********** has become the weapon of choice at EvC against ******* opinions? Kinda reminds a person of how the ********* world operates, oh and the Fascistic world too. That's what the Prager story was about that got posted recently, and interestingly enough treated to the very methods it was trying to expose. Gosh isn't that just too coincidental?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 5:12 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 6:42 PM Faith has responded
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2019 12:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 53 of 73 (866579)
11-12-2019 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
11-12-2019 6:26 PM


Re: Anti-American Propaganda,
I'm sick of all the anti-American propaganda and that's all your avatar represents to me.

You support the destruction of whole nations of people?

Your christian is showing again. Destructive. Hateful. Evil.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 6:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 6:46 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 54 of 73 (866580)
11-12-2019 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 6:42 PM


Re: Anti-American Propaganda,
Yeah, right, you've got all those ****** lies down pat, all the ** labels, such a conformist you are sad to say. Just as Prager says, it's all to ********** and shut us up. No, I'm not going to defend myself against the ******* propaganda machine, they're going to destroy the country and probably kill me too. You can have first swing at me if you ****. That's because I'm fond of you of course, so I give you permission to kill me. There are some ******** I would not want to be killed by so you should take it as a compliment..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 6:42 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 11-12-2019 7:11 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 56 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 7:35 PM Faith has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 55 of 73 (866581)
11-12-2019 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
11-12-2019 6:46 PM


Looking at facts.
Were the Cherokee forced to leave their homelands?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 6:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 56 of 73 (866583)
11-12-2019 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
11-12-2019 6:46 PM


Re: Anti-American Propaganda,
You're the christian, not me. I don't want to kill anyone, especially you.

I don't think anyone here wants to kill anyone else here. But when evil arises it must be called out for what it is. My views on religion, especially yours, are well known. You shouldn't be surprised, or insulted (well maybe a little), by my response.

Your pollyanna view of American history is quaint but nieve. We American's do not have a good reputation with our native populations. Or the populations that we forced into slavery. In fact we have one of the worst records on the planet. For all our law and talk of freedoms we have a major problem actually practicing those high principles outside our limited family. We have abused, subjugated, and exterminated those we consider "them".

Part of real patriotism is knowing and accepting our countries tainted history so as to safeguard against repeating our past crimes.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 6:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 11-12-2019 7:39 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-12-2019 8:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 57 of 73 (866584)
11-12-2019 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 7:35 PM


Immigration problems
America has long had a real immigration problem. Ask any Native American.

AbE:

We tend to forget that there have been thriving cultures here in the Americas since at least 20,000 years before the Garden of Eden.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 7:35 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5878
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 58 of 73 (866585)
11-12-2019 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 5:12 PM


Re: American Genocide
We have a large population of Apache and Navajo in Arizona. Their view of this white man's holiday is quite different from that of the society that has systematically impoverished and deliberately exterminated their peoples and their cultures over these last 300 years.

I find the treatment of Native Americans often to be largely fictionalized by both sides. The mythos of Thanksgiving is based around kernel's of truth. There was a peace pact and a celebration of sorts. But this was in one area with one or two tribes and this occasion really only happened once. So the traditional aspect is grossly exaggerated. Other pacts between tribes and colonials were war pacts where the certain tribes sided with either the French, the English, or the Americans. It was an expedient for both sides.

Native Americans are often viewed homogeneously, as if belonging to one large group. The reality is that long before Europeans invaded foreign, tribes were as disparate and nuanced as any other tribe on earth. They damn sure didn't view one another as brothers but rather enemies... or in some cases, frenemies. The idealized "Noble Savage" narrative that's in touch with nature and passing the peace pipe is a Disney-fied version of history just as out of touch with historical reality as Thanksgiving is. Some tribes really were much more meek than others. Some, like the Comanches in particular, terrorized anyone not in their tribe -- whether colonials or other Native American tribes.

The barbarity of the Comanches, and some other tribes, were astonishing. And this wasn't consigned to only North America but also tribes in Central and South America reflect the same nature -- some being very meek and peaceful and others existing by brutality.

Long before the white man did N.A. tribes war with one another.

Having said that, no one can overlook how different settlers treated Natives. Some treated them well and wanted to live in harmony with them while many, many others brutalized them, used them, betrayed them in many instances and, while we're on the topic of savagery, also brutalized many different tribes to advance their view of Manifest Destiny.

My take on it is that, like it is with anything else, there's good people and there are bad people. They are mingled in with different races. There's no such thing as a benevolent race or a malevolent race. There's only good people and bad people and they are scattered throughout the earth.

Am I bothered by their eventual fate? Sure, how can you not be? Land was given back to them and there's not a single reservation flourishing anywhere in the United States. All of them are downtrodden.

I lived in Flagstaff for a few years ('04 - '06) and I met plenty of Navajo and Hopi peoples. I found that many didn't seem to want to dwell on the past but were much more interested in the future. I met others that looked at me with the coldest disdain imaginable because I was a representation of all that was wrong in their world.

Whatever the case, its incontestable that just as slavery was a scar on the American conscience, so too has been the fate of Natives.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 5:12 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Theodoric, posted 11-12-2019 8:20 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 59 of 73 (866590)
11-12-2019 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by AZPaul3
11-12-2019 7:35 PM


Re: Anti-American **********,
Is my view ********* or is yours ******* **********? I don't usually try to find middle ground in this ideological war but in this case maybe that's where the ***** ****.

AbE Gosh pretty soon I'll have no words ****.\

Oh and here comes the lecture from Percy or someone else on behalf of poor abused EvC.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 7:35 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2019 8:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6883
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 60 of 73 (866592)
11-12-2019 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hyroglyphx
11-12-2019 7:44 PM


Re: American Genocide
You are portraying an incorrect fictional view of native tribes pre contact. Most of the native peoples had been knocked back to a brutal stone age existence by disease that was caused by white contact. The Europeans did not make contact with most natives until well after the devastation by disease. Probably the only non tainted contact was Columbus and the first Spanish to land on the mainland. Most native societies pre contact were quite sophisticated. Not only is the concept of noble savage quite in correct, the concept of native american being savages at all is white ethnocentric concept that is probably not true at all.

A very good general book that explores this is
1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus - Wikipedia

As far as reservations you make big misrepresentation. Land was not given to them. The land they were put on was all that was left to them. It was usually the most inhospitable, least productive and most remote place the government could find. A lot if reservations were not even in the tribes traditional place of living. For this and other reasons it is no wonder why reservations are poverty stricken.

You make some good points about peoples mistaken beliefs, but your beliefs are based on myths and inaccurate information also.

I want to make clear. I am not attacking you or your post. All I am doing is pointing out inaccuracies in your post.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-12-2019 7:44 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-12-2019 8:44 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019