Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 69 (9033 total)
73 online now:
PaulK, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat), vimesey (4 members, 69 visitors)
Newest Member: Johnny
Upcoming Birthdays: Percy
Post Volume: Total: 885,078 Year: 2,724/14,102 Month: 389/703 Week: 42/168 Day: 11/31 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Generating information in a neural network playing chess
RAZD
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 33 (871960)
02-16-2020 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by WookieeB
02-16-2020 12:54 PM


Evolved algorithms
... looking for slightly different outcomes from other chess algorithms. Add in some good memory and compute power and you ended up with the best chess program to date.


You mean it used evolved algorithms? Ones that didn’t exist before? That it developed ... through evolutionary process of modification and selection?

Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by WookieeB, posted 02-16-2020 12:54 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by JonF, posted 02-16-2020 4:53 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 11 by WookieeB, posted 02-17-2020 5:27 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 33 (871990)
02-17-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by JonF
02-16-2020 4:53 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
We don't even know what its algorithms are. They were generated by a neural network; I don't know if that counts as an evolutionary algorithm.


Trial & error, selection of fitter algorithms for next generation, modification & repeat.

We don’t know the specific DNA changes either ...

Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by JonF, posted 02-16-2020 4:53 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 33 (872211)
02-22-2020 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by WookieeB
02-17-2020 5:27 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
No, it didnt "evolve" it's own algorithm. It was programmed with the rules of chess (and other games as it turns out), provided formulas for weighing different moves in the game, given memory and the ability to compare different outcomes so that it could use what it had previously determined and build from there. All the instructions for it to do what it was going to do, the algorithm, was given to it by the programmers. The program did not learn to do any new tasks or abilities that were not given to it.


It was programmed with the rules of evolution, provided formulas for weighing different survival strategies, given memory and the ability to compare survival outcomes so that it could use what it had previously determined and build from there. All the instructions for it to do what it was going to do, the algorithm, was give to it by the programmers. The program did not learn to do any new tasks or abilities that were not given to it.

Still sounds like an evolutionary process. No it didn't sudden-macro-evolve a new task, or start playing a different game, but evolution doesn't work that way either.

btw -- there are more than one algorithm involved. Just like there are more than one survival strategy.

Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by WookieeB, posted 02-17-2020 5:27 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by WookieeB, posted 02-23-2020 10:15 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 14 of 33 (872328)
02-25-2020 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by WookieeB
02-23-2020 10:15 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
bit of a generous description, don't you think? After all, there was no mention of the word "evolution" or "evolve", and only one instance of "selection" that had nothing to do with what could be inferred as a "rule of evolution". But hey, if you want to say that, I'll give that to ya.

Parody analogy wins again.

And yet with that sort of description, the results end up being totally within the parameters of a designed system and show nothing akin to the claims of biological evolution being able to accomplish. I'm curious what you think "evolved" in the system.

The winning Strategy.

The search space of moves is immense and could not fully be searched in detail with modern technology. And yet that space all falls within the parameters of the rules of chess. The programmers gave the chess program a way to heuristically search through the space, find patterns and apply weights to what it searched to build a statistically more-likely-to-win method to playing the game. It was intelligently designed all the way down, and in the end, no matter how well the program performed it's job (surviving in analogy), it still was just 'playing' chess.... as designed. It didn't learn or develop anything new on it's own.

It was not programmed with the winning strategy. So no it was not “intelligently designed all the way down” it had to develop that strategy through trial and error. It learned how to win using an algorithm that was not part of the programming.

... But I disagree with the title of the PT article, in that there was no complex information created, ...

Which is meaningless, as (A) this is not a defined biological term, (B) it is not quantifiable by any means I know, and (C) evolution does not have to do anything but evolution.

You know ID fails when it makes up sciency sounding word and provides no means to quantify them. That’s pseudoscience.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by WookieeB, posted 02-23-2020 10:15 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by WookieeB, posted 02-25-2020 4:58 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021