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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Phat
Member
Posts: 15605
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 306 (872636)
03-01-2020 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
02-28-2020 5:52 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
jar writes:

God has absolutely nothing to do with the concept or practice of morality.

This brings up the question as to what you believe that God *does* have anything to do with. I understand that you believe that the "God characters" in the Bible were simply products of human interpretation. I also have heard you say a time or two that you are a believer and that you believe in GOD, God, and god. (Differing aspects of one reality.) But the question, unanswerable in absolute terms, is what we humans believe about what aspects of our lives, interactions, goals, and struggles does God have to do with?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 02-28-2020 5:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 11:19 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15605
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 306 (872638)
03-01-2020 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dogmafood
03-01-2020 9:53 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
I don't see the god either but how could you tell anyway?
I feel it.(Him) Critics will say that it is all in my imagination, so I have no way of clarifying my point any better. I believe that I can tell a presence (or the perception of this presence) apart from my own imagination. You do have a point though as to how it would ever be proven.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Dogmafood, posted 03-01-2020 9:53 AM Dogmafood has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15605
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 306 (872639)
03-01-2020 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
03-01-2020 6:00 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
tangle writes:

1) Learnt behaviour
2) Emotion

And I bet that you think that every single member of any church who claims to belong to the club does in fact share in the learned behavior and emotion. I personally do not believe this. many don't get it (yet) which I can only conclude that it is(was) not their time. I *do* know that I had been in churches for years before I had my personal epiphany. The fact that the new awareness/feeling lasted strong for at least a year before being defined by me as an inner awareness confirms its reality to me at least. I suppose were I a good scientist I would try and disprove it but there is nothing to be gained through doing that.

Unbelief is for me a liability.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 6:00 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 1:30 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15605
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 23 of 306 (872643)
03-01-2020 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
03-01-2020 11:19 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
jar writes:

People believe what they believe but beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with reality.

Tell that to the Moses character as he stepped out in Faith and parted the sea. Tell that to Abraham as he sacrificed his son. Tell it to Jesus as He allowed Himself to be arrested.

You may argue that only actions are connected to reality and that beliefs CAN lead to actions. We shall see.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 11:19 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 11:42 AM Phat has responded
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 11:01 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15605
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 306 (872658)
03-01-2020 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
03-01-2020 1:42 PM


Re: Morality is a social construct
I trust your learned explanation. I always have trusted your wisdom. You bring up an interesting line of thought, though.
People always hear of the violent cultures of the early Jews and how God commanded them to kill everyone--men, women, and children alike. To me, it was always more about the morality of that culture at that time and in (and at) that point of development rather than it was about blaming the booming voice of God.

Why is that not so obvious to these jokers who use such scriptures to point out the fact that the God of our belief is not moral?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2020 1:42 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by RAZD, posted 03-07-2020 12:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15605
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 28 of 306 (872660)
03-01-2020 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
03-01-2020 11:42 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
jar writes:

But beliefs are still simply fantasies.

I know that you love to point this out as you endlessly criticize the apologists and the preachers within Biblical Christianity--which you call out as fantasy-driven.

But in examining your own church (club, if you will) are you also saying that whenever anyone mentions the name of God or even of Jesus that they are at best praying corporately about a fantasy?

And I notice that you ducked some of my questions (by calling them irrelevant and thus framing this issue the way that YOU wanted it framed)
so I will ask them again:

  • ... the question as to what you believe that God *does* have anything to do with. And more specifically what your church...your club...believes regarding what God has anything to do with. Is He interactive? Can He listen? Does He ever answer prayer? Or is He like a proud Papa figure...standing silent (symbolically) and watching His children learn to play together, help each other, and grow more spiritually (and practically) mature? In other words, is God simply a figurehead?

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 11:42 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 2:54 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 30 of 306 (872662)
    03-01-2020 3:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
    03-01-2020 1:30 PM


    Proactive vs Benevolent Gods In Cultural Development
    Tangle writes:

    The difficulty appears to lie in the assertion by believers that we can't know what right and wrong are without there being a god to tell us. The question is why not?

    I would add to this question. The early books of the Bible were written by authors reflecting the interpreted reality of those times, correct?
    I brought this up to RAZD in Message 26

    So a followup question would be whether the "chosen people" would have developed any differently had they not centered so much of their cultural expression around the Temple of Yahweh?

    And would a less proactive God have sufficed? Perhaps a smiling harmless figurehead, such as other cultures have had.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 1:30 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 31 of 306 (872663)
    03-01-2020 3:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by jar
    03-01-2020 2:54 PM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    By extension, you could say that the only important thing within the goal(s) of a belief are the actions generated. I just wanted to emphasize the idea (which you taught me) that Morality is an action rather than a belief and that even in your club no God is required.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 2:54 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 4:28 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 33 of 306 (872666)
    03-01-2020 5:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by jar
    03-01-2020 4:28 PM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    So would you say that (many) Episcopalians have eliminated religion and attempt to embrace reality?

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 4:28 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 7:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 37 of 306 (872706)
    03-02-2020 5:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
    03-02-2020 11:01 AM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    The only reason your argument carries any weight is if the people of that time were judged through human-centrism. The fact is, they were Theo-centric. You cant snap cuffs on your own sociological conscience. Your problem is that you view these events from a human-centric perspective.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 11:01 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-02-2020 5:31 PM Phat has responded
     Message 52 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 40 of 306 (872710)
    03-02-2020 7:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
    03-02-2020 5:31 PM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    Taq writes:

    Since theology was created by humans within a society, it circles back on itself.

    But this is an assumption made by secular humanists. While the ideas about God were written by humans, God the concept is Himself Creator of all things---including humans.

    Taq writes:

    If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command.

    God was testing Abraham, so the story goes. If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit. Critics would argue that God by definition represented the main authority in those times. Just as presidents enjoy diplomatic immunity for a season, so would God.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-02-2020 5:31 PM Taq has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:22 PM Phat has responded
     Message 53 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:42 AM Phat has responded
     Message 64 by Taq, posted 03-03-2020 12:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 42 of 306 (872712)
    03-02-2020 7:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by jar
    03-02-2020 7:22 PM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    You really need to stop exaggerating. "The Bible" can say otherwise. For every genesis 3 scripture that you show me, I can show you 5 scriptures that place God in a unique category above humans. You love your pet arguments, though.

    Remember "my ways are higher than your ways? Remember "God is not a man that He should lie?"

    and no, I have not read the Bible thoroughly lately...but it appears that it is you doing the cherry-picking this time.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:22 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:43 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 44 of 306 (872714)
    03-02-2020 8:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by jar
    03-02-2020 7:43 PM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    But that's the character in the book. I'm talking about the real Deity.

    You cant be a believer simply by testing content. You have to accept the source.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:43 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 8:29 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 46 of 306 (872727)
    03-03-2020 10:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 45 by jar
    03-03-2020 8:29 AM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    So how are you going to test the "Source" when the book is full of many sources?
    How do you construct a God whom you can believe in when you are presented with so many different characters?

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 8:29 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:17 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 48 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 10:21 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15605
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 47 of 306 (872728)
    03-03-2020 10:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
    03-03-2020 10:12 AM


    Re: Morality with God is imaginary
    By the way, I have been listening to a Bible teacher who has, in fact read the Bible and who talks about Morality and God.
    Dr.Joseph Garwood On Morality

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 49 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 10:21 AM Phat has responded

      
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