Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9077 total)
747 online now:
kjsimons, PaulK, Phat, PurpleYouko, Tangle, Tanypteryx, Theodoric, vimesey (8 members, 739 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,123 Year: 5,235/6,534 Month: 78/577 Week: 66/80 Day: 33/20 Hour: 0/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 306 (872568)
02-28-2020 5:52 PM


Morality with God is imaginary
Looking at "morality" in the Bible shows that the only possible definition of Biblical morality is that Morality what the author of the story thinks the God character says is moral.

Morality is and has always been something solely defined by a society. God has absolutely nothing to do with the concept or practice of morality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:25 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 9 of 306 (872573)
02-28-2020 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
02-28-2020 8:06 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
GDR writes:

If there is no universal sense of morality that exists outside of human thought then I hold to that statement that there is no frame of reference for our sense of morality.

And, thank God, that is correct. There is no universal sense of morality or absolute morality. Morality evolves and is defined by each culture.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:25 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 11 of 306 (872578)
02-28-2020 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
02-28-2020 8:25 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
The Golden Rule is so vague that it is meaningless beyond a really general "feel good" bumper sticker.

And it has never been universal.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 02-28-2020 8:25 PM GDR has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 22 of 306 (872642)
03-01-2020 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
03-01-2020 10:25 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

I also have heard you say a time or two that you are a believer and that you believe in GOD, God, and god. (Differing aspects of one reality.)

No Phat, once again you really really really misrepresent what I believe.

All God(s) and god(s) are human creations and not some aspect of GOD.

Phat writes:

But the question, unanswerable in absolute terms, is what we humans believe about what aspects of our lives, interactions, goals, and struggles does God have to do with?

Once again, that is a totally irrelevant question.

People believe what they believe but beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with reality. People believe that God does lots of things but in most modern cases it is only the good things.

At least when the authors of the Bible stories made up a God character they were honest enough to often so the God a down right nasty.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 10:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 11:27 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 24 of 306 (872645)
03-01-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
03-01-2020 11:27 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

Tell that to the Moses character as he stepped out in Faith and parted the sea. Tell that to Abraham as he sacrificed his son. Tell it to Jesus as He allowed Himself to be arrested.

The first two didn't happen and in the third there wasn't much of an option.

But beliefs are quite simply individual fantasies and of course individual fantasies can lead to people doing really dumb things and very occasionally to people doing amazingly wonderful things. But beliefs are still simply fantasies.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 11:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 2:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 29 of 306 (872661)
03-01-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
03-01-2020 2:42 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

But in examining your own church (club, if you will) are you also saying that whenever anyone mentions the name of God or even of Jesus that they are at best praying corporately about a fantasy?

Yes. But the content of the prayer rather than the source or destination are what count.

Phat writes:

the question as to what you believe that God *does* have anything to do with. And more specifically what your church...your club...believes regarding what God has anything to do with. Is He interactive? Can He listen? Does He ever answer prayer? Or is He like a proud Papa figure...standing silent (symbolically) and watching His children learn to play together, help each other, and grow more spiritually (and practically) mature? In other words, is God simply a figurehead?

And I answered that already Phat. People do believe lots of stuff, but they are all still just beliefs.

If some is cured and they believe that Jesus did it or Allah did it or Buddha did it or Ganesha did it or Satan did it the only relevant thing is the cure, not the belief.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 2:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 32 of 306 (872665)
03-01-2020 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
03-01-2020 3:04 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

I just wanted to emphasize the idea (which you taught me) that Morality is an action rather than a belief and that even in your club no God is required.

You are still conflating religion and reality Phat. In the various clubs a god is required. Seriously Phat. If it is a religion there is a God(s) or god(s) present.

But in reality it is what actually happens, what is actually written, what is actually verifiable that is required.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 5:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 34 of 306 (872667)
03-01-2020 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
03-01-2020 5:01 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

So would you say that (many) Episcopalians have eliminated religion and attempt to embrace reality?

LOL

Sheesh Phat.

How does a religion eliminate religion?

Think Phat. Try to think.

Why do you always try to frame things as either a zero sum condition or an either/or choice.

Do you think people are really so limited?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 5:01 PM Phat has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2020 7:11 PM jar has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 39 of 306 (872709)
03-02-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
03-02-2020 5:31 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Taq writes:

If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command.

And the Bible says we are charged in that case to question God as has been pointed out to Phat many, many times.

Genesis 18:17-33 writes:

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-02-2020 5:31 PM Taq has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 41 of 306 (872711)
03-02-2020 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
03-02-2020 7:19 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit.

According to the Bible humans are as high an authority on morality as God. Remember Genesis 3 Phat?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 306 (872713)
03-02-2020 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
03-02-2020 7:29 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Yes Phat, the Bible is filled with contradictions. It's filled with examples of God's morality and frankly in most cases God is not just immoral but rather amoral.

That is why no one should simply accept "God said it so it's right" and always test the content rather than accept the source.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 8:34 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 45 of 306 (872724)
03-03-2020 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
03-02-2020 8:34 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

You cant be a believer simply by testing content. You have to accept the source.

You only have to accept that the source is who the source claims to be and until you provide some way to actually test to see if it really is GOD and not just God or god even that acceptance is simply a belief. Any content must always be tested and that includes content from God or god.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 8:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:12 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 48 of 306 (872729)
03-03-2020 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

How do you construct a God whom you can believe in when you are presented with so many different characters?

Think Phat. People created each of those Gods. People have created thousands of Gods. God(s) and god(s) exist as long as there are believers in that God or god.

The answer is that you understand that GOD, if GOD exists is NOT any of the Gods or gods we have created.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:38 AM jar has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 306 (872730)
03-03-2020 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:17 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Another Proof Texter. Bare links?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:29 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 306 (872739)
03-03-2020 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
03-03-2020 10:29 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

I heard a couple of his sermons and liked them. They made sense.

Consider that. What does that have to do with anything beyond confirmation bias?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 11:09 AM jar has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022