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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 84 of 306 (872835)
03-05-2020 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
02-29-2020 8:46 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
I am simply saying that if there is a moral intelligence that is responsible for our existence then there can be an absolute morality...

I'm curious as to why you think that if there is some other sense of morality out there, that it must be better than ours by default, let alone Absolute in terms of its moral pronouncements.

Parents pass all kinds of negative traits to their children all the time; how do you assume that this would not be the the case if there was some Cosmic creative intelligence responsible for our existence? How do you make the leap from "There is something out there," to "Everything about that something is moral perfection."?

To me this is the essence of the tiny child's thoughts. Toddlers make the assumption that mom and dad are strong and good, and can't imagine flaws in them. Maybe we need to be more mature in our assumptions about things we can't possibly understand.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 02-29-2020 8:46 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 03-05-2020 2:05 PM Aussie has not yet responded
 Message 88 by Stile, posted 03-05-2020 2:24 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 192 of 306 (873274)
03-12-2020 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
03-06-2020 1:59 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Tangle says:
Second this god could have a morality we didn't like, for example he could be the god of the Old Testament who is a total bastard.

Phat says:

The evidence shows that it was the people who were being total bastards to each other in the name of survival of some of them. God was simply a plot device they used to justify their actions.

I agree with you here Phat!

BUT...Do you believe that God commanded Moses to slaughter the Midianites, and that Moses got angry at his soldiers when he saw they hadn't killed enough women?
Did God command Joshua to destroy Jericho and kill every living thing inside the walls, including pregnant mothers and infants? I have harped on about this with Faith before, but you guys bring it out of me every time.

Thank "God" that in reality evidence disproves these tales, and it ONLY shows primitive people being bastards to each other in the name of their local religion. Your problem starts immediately though when you add a mystical layer of externally imposed morals. Your problem only compounds when you claim (without evidence) that that externally imposed morality was (and remains) the ultimate in good.

If Scripture is true and Moses and Joshua were obeying the voice of God then it was so much more than bastards just being bastards. They were bastards obeying commands of another external Bastard. Why is it your God is real when you want a warm and fuzzy "personal relationship" security blanket, but just a "plot device" when His dark and evil side shows?

I understand why your brain can't bring itself to be honest with this reality, but it looks just sad and ridiculous!


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 03-06-2020 1:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 03-12-2020 3:34 PM Aussie has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 194 of 306 (873276)
03-12-2020 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
03-12-2020 3:34 PM


Re: A Universal Morality
Phat writes:
Given that God exists, and given that Jesus Christ is alive, do human believers have access to a personal internal coach? A conscience of higher developed order and accuracy than the run of the mill consciences which unbelievers are forced to rely upon? Some would argue, subjectively at best, that this is the case. I reject this theory, even though I myself experienced subjective evidence of it...

You should reject this. In its entirety. It's absurd.

Any nonsensical concept could be substituted in here. Look:

Given that (some absurd concept) exists, do humans have access to (some other absurd concept)?

Given that Leprechauns exist, do humans have access to pots of gold at the end of rainbows?

Given that Allah exists, do martyrs have access to 72 virgins in paradise?

It's the purest nonsense, don't fool yourself.

That all being said, I don't believe that God is evil. He is at worst firm and unchanging. Humans are so far off the mark that we were intended for. ringo brought it out of me. Why is it that none of us trust God enough to give all of our surpluses away to each other until everyone has enough to eat? I have no answer except to say that I cant.

If He had existed as described in the Old Testament, He would have demanded rivers of children's blood. Don't confuse that with "firm and unchanging." And if He is unchanged from the Old Testament He is still that bloodthirsty monster, and you are defending Him.

As for the rest of your post, you've got to stop beating yourself up for being human. We aren't going to be redeemed superheroes standing to "redeem creation" at the end of time. We live and die just people. And that's okay. You have empathy for others, yet are driven to protect yourself and those closest to you genetically. You are human. You are primate. You are mammal. These are all characteristics shared by our mammal cousins all over the world.

Welcome to the real world...you can enjoy it if you want to! Just cut the stupid self-imposed guilt trip.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 03-12-2020 3:34 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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