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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 306 (872878)
03-06-2020 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
03-06-2020 5:46 AM


Re: A Universal Morality
When GDR said

“if there is a moral intelligence...
then there can be an absolute morality“

I supposed what he meant was more like

If there is a universal moral intelligence that governs this universe
then there can be an absolute morality.

So, GDR, is that what you meant?
And Tangle, what difference does it make to your thinking?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2020 5:46 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 03-06-2020 11:59 AM Faith has not yet responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 149 of 306 (873046)
03-09-2020 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by RAZD
03-09-2020 9:32 AM


Re: Are the morals of a lion the same as an antelope?
I suppose it doesn't really make sense to speak of animals having a moral sense, but I had an experience with a baby raccoon I had rescued that made me think they are certainly aware when they've transgressed some kind of moral standard. I had rescued her and fed her and petted her and she was very tame but still had her wild animal instincts. She grabbed something I didn't want her to have, I forget what, and when I took it from her she made a motion to bite me. She didn't bite me but she looked at me with the most amazing expression of contrition and remorse in her eyes, as if she "realized" she had almost bitten this person who was so good to her. Is that a moral sense? I want to call it that. Or maybe she was afraid I'd punish her? But I'd never treated her with anything but affection.

Here's the thing: They have an intelligence that can make decisions. It's not all instinctual behavior. Certainly this has to be true of the mammals, but I think it may also be true of birds, not sure how I have that iidea.

Oh did any one hear about the man who had rescued an alligator and fed it and took care of it while it healed from some kind of wounds, and when it was healed it followed him around like a pet. At first I said it was a baby alligator but I don't think it was. Certainly animnals respond intelligently to such situations.

And now I have many other such situations in mind I could mention where the animal showed gratitude for human care. A lion a woman took care of hugging her through the bars of his cage. Now also think of animals who care for other animnals, a dog at an animal rescue center that went around licking and trying to comfort other animals there as they were brought in. Not sure how all this fits into the morality idea though.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 03-09-2020 9:32 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 153 of 306 (873061)
03-09-2020 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
03-09-2020 11:10 AM


Re: Are the morals of a lion the same as an antelope?
Tangle writes:

RAZD writes:

We also see whales and dolphins protecting/helping swimmers

Sure. Or at lest we see behaviours that look to us like empathetic behaviour. That's ok by me, but it's not moral behaviour. Moral behaviour requires both the instincts to act empathetically in certain situations and the capacity to choice whether to obey them or not.

That's a good point. In the examples I gave I think my little raccoom showed the abili6ty to choose. She chose not to bite me, she was able to curtail that instinct, and I think showed something like remorse for almost acting on it.


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 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2020 11:10 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 306 (874616)
04-07-2020 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by GDR
04-06-2020 9:06 PM


Denying a Fact to Save a Belief?
Since you are taking a potshot at me from another thread on which I am not posting, I would like you to explain it:

you're a version of Faith. A nice liberal one but you're fighting facts to save your belief and that's ultimately disastrous for your faith. Someone capable of real critical thinking would not allow a belief to overcome a fact.

Of course I deny this flatly, and I ask that you please supply ONE example of a fact that I'm fighting in order to save my belief.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by PaulK, posted 04-07-2020 1:36 AM Faith has responded
 Message 271 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2020 3:21 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 306 (874618)
04-07-2020 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by PaulK
04-07-2020 1:36 AM


Re: Denying a Fact to Save a Belief?
Those are all interpretations, or selective irrelevancies, not facts. And Tangle was talking about Christian belief. I'd like to hear what he meant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by PaulK, posted 04-07-2020 1:36 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 273 of 306 (874625)
04-07-2020 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Tangle
04-07-2020 3:21 AM


Re: Denying a Fact to Save a Belief?
No I'm not kidding. What you think are facts I don't think are facts. There's our problem.

Cheers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2020 3:21 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2020 5:35 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 276 of 306 (874633)
04-07-2020 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tangle
04-07-2020 5:35 AM


Re: Denying a Fact to Save a Belief?
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. I make use of plenty of actual facts I learn from science, they fit just fine into my biblical model. Those that don't are really quite few and I put them on hold for later. What I actually reject isn't facts it's the accepted interpretation of the facts.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2020 5:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2020 8:23 AM Faith has responded
 Message 278 by PaulK, posted 04-07-2020 12:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 283 of 306 (874677)
04-08-2020 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Tangle
04-07-2020 8:23 AM


Re: Denying a Fact to Save a Belief?
tangled one writes:

delusion
/dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n/
noun
noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

de·ceit
/dəˈsēt/

noun
noun: deceit; plural noun: deceits
the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth.
"a web of deceit"
h
Similar:
deception

deceitfulness

duplicity

double-dealing

fraud


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2020 8:23 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2020 3:11 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 285 of 306 (874679)
04-08-2020 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Tangle
04-08-2020 3:11 AM


Re: Denying a Fact to Save a Belief?
Soooo clever of you.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2020 3:11 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 552 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 306 (875022)
04-13-2020 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Sarah Bellum
04-12-2020 5:48 PM


...

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Sarah Bellum, posted 04-12-2020 5:48 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
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