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Author Topic:   Morality without God is impossible
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 31 of 306 (872663)
03-01-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
03-01-2020 2:54 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
By extension, you could say that the only important thing within the goal(s) of a belief are the actions generated. I just wanted to emphasize the idea (which you taught me) that Morality is an action rather than a belief and that even in your club no God is required.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 2:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 4:28 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 32 of 306 (872665)
03-01-2020 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
03-01-2020 3:04 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

I just wanted to emphasize the idea (which you taught me) that Morality is an action rather than a belief and that even in your club no God is required.

You are still conflating religion and reality Phat. In the various clubs a god is required. Seriously Phat. If it is a religion there is a God(s) or god(s) present.

But in reality it is what actually happens, what is actually written, what is actually verifiable that is required.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 3:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 5:01 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 33 of 306 (872666)
03-01-2020 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
03-01-2020 4:28 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
So would you say that (many) Episcopalians have eliminated religion and attempt to embrace reality?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 4:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 7:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 34 of 306 (872667)
03-01-2020 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
03-01-2020 5:01 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

So would you say that (many) Episcopalians have eliminated religion and attempt to embrace reality?

LOL

Sheesh Phat.

How does a religion eliminate religion?

Think Phat. Try to think.

Why do you always try to frame things as either a zero sum condition or an either/or choice.

Do you think people are really so limited?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 5:01 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2020 7:11 PM jar has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5191
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 35 of 306 (872668)
03-01-2020 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
03-01-2020 7:05 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Why do you always try to frame things as either a zero sum condition or an either/or choice.

Do you think people are really so limited?

Adding to the adage that women have a crayon box with 32 colors and men one with only 8 colors, could we say that religionists only have a Sharpie and White-out?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 03-01-2020 7:05 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19752
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 36 of 306 (872692)
03-02-2020 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
03-01-2020 11:27 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

Tell that to Abraham as he sacrificed his son.


Too busy snapping the cuffs on him.

It's funny that you'd pick one of the most immoral acts in the Bible as an example.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 03-01-2020 11:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 5:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 37 of 306 (872706)
03-02-2020 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
03-02-2020 11:01 AM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
The only reason your argument carries any weight is if the people of that time were judged through human-centrism. The fact is, they were Theo-centric. You cant snap cuffs on your own sociological conscience. Your problem is that you view these events from a human-centric perspective.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 11:01 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-02-2020 5:31 PM Phat has replied
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8525
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


(4)
Message 38 of 306 (872707)
03-02-2020 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
03-02-2020 5:11 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

The only reason your argument carries any weight is if the people of that time were judged through human-centrism. The fact is, they were Theo-centric.

Since theology was created by humans within a society, it circles back on itself.

Morality makes no sense once it is taken out of the human context. If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command. There is no way around it. If morality is simply based on what God commands then we are no different than dogs who take commands or computers. Following orders isn't morality.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 5:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:06 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:19 PM Taq has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 39 of 306 (872709)
03-02-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
03-02-2020 5:31 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Taq writes:

If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command.

And the Bible says we are charged in that case to question God as has been pointed out to Phat many, many times.

Genesis 18:17-33 writes:

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-02-2020 5:31 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 40 of 306 (872710)
03-02-2020 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
03-02-2020 5:31 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Taq writes:

Since theology was created by humans within a society, it circles back on itself.

But this is an assumption made by secular humanists. While the ideas about God were written by humans, God the concept is Himself Creator of all things---including humans.

Taq writes:

If God ordered humanity to do something that went against our most basic moral sense then it is immoral for God to make that command.

God was testing Abraham, so the story goes. If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit. Critics would argue that God by definition represented the main authority in those times. Just as presidents enjoy diplomatic immunity for a season, so would God.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 03-02-2020 5:31 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:22 PM Phat has replied
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:42 AM Phat has replied
 Message 64 by Taq, posted 03-03-2020 12:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 41 of 306 (872711)
03-02-2020 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
03-02-2020 7:19 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

If human justice places God no higher of an authority than humans, your argument has merit.

According to the Bible humans are as high an authority on morality as God. Remember Genesis 3 Phat?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:29 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 42 of 306 (872712)
03-02-2020 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
03-02-2020 7:22 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
You really need to stop exaggerating. "The Bible" can say otherwise. For every genesis 3 scripture that you show me, I can show you 5 scriptures that place God in a unique category above humans. You love your pet arguments, though.

Remember "my ways are higher than your ways? Remember "God is not a man that He should lie?"

and no, I have not read the Bible thoroughly lately...but it appears that it is you doing the cherry-picking this time.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:43 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 43 of 306 (872713)
03-02-2020 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
03-02-2020 7:29 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Yes Phat, the Bible is filled with contradictions. It's filled with examples of God's morality and frankly in most cases God is not just immoral but rather amoral.

That is why no one should simply accept "God said it so it's right" and always test the content rather than accept the source.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 7:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 8:34 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16087
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 44 of 306 (872714)
03-02-2020 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
03-02-2020 7:43 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
But that's the character in the book. I'm talking about the real Deity.

You cant be a believer simply by testing content. You have to accept the source.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 03-02-2020 7:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 03-03-2020 8:29 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 45 of 306 (872724)
03-03-2020 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
03-02-2020 8:34 PM


Re: Morality with God is imaginary
Phat writes:

You cant be a believer simply by testing content. You have to accept the source.

You only have to accept that the source is who the source claims to be and until you provide some way to actually test to see if it really is GOD and not just God or god even that acceptance is simply a belief. Any content must always be tested and that includes content from God or god.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 03-02-2020 8:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 03-03-2020 10:12 AM jar has replied

  
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