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Author Topic:   Covid-19 and religion.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 136 of 143 (875153)
04-15-2020 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by mike the wiz
04-15-2020 2:03 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
MtW writes:

Because under evolution, your atheist version of god has always been a useless, merciless, powerless bastard.

I'm going to regret this because your pattern of behaviour is to come here every couple of months, spew some errant nonsense spattered with fake and pseudo-philosophical garbage, pose around telling us how clever you are, then bugger off leaving a stinking mess of verbiage behind you.

But hey-ho; just for starters, atheists do not have any version of god.

Secondly, if a god created all this stuff while in a whimsical mood, he's not going to be called powerless by anyone - just utterly callous and uncaring. Merciless is a religious trope that no atheist would fall for.

Thirdly, ffs stop confusing atheism and evolution - you could at least give the impression of having a brain as well as a mouth.

I'm missing Faith already.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 2:03 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 2:49 PM Tangle has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4686
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 137 of 143 (875157)
04-15-2020 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Tangle
04-15-2020 2:21 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
Tangle writes:

I'm going to regret this because your pattern of behaviour is to come here every couple of months, spew some errant nonsense spattered with fake and pseudo-philosophical garbage, pose around telling us how clever you are, then bugger off leaving a stinking mess of verbiage behind you.

No, it isn't. What this assertion is, is a rhetorical "mess", laced with question-begging-epithets, of which I am confident you still don't even understand exist. Just blurting things out according to the spin you put on them doesn't prove anything Tangle. That is why I name you as someone that should have potentially been banned.

Tangle writes:

But hey-ho; just for starters, atheists do not have any version of god

They have a strawman version of God. An atheist celebration day was online, I watched it and an atheist gave a version of god being the god of ALL religion. The god that would be both Allah and Jesus, the god that "SHOULD" be answering all prayer if he exists.

He argued that because that god doesn't answer prayer, God doesn't exist. His analogy was that God's email inbox was full of spam He didn't have time to answer.

But that type of atheist-strawman-god cannot logically exist because of the mutually exclusive tenets of each religion. For example with Christianity, it doesn't follow that God would answer the prayers of Muslims.

So his argument was a strawman god. Perhaps you should take that issue up with the atheist that argued it, and those who gave him a round of applause for his fallacious argument.

Tangle writes:

Thirdly, ffs stop confusing atheism and evolution - you could at least give the impression of having a brain as well as a mouth.

They're for all purposes one and the same thing. If God is the god of various evolutions, then that means god has done nothing, and then God is basically a name-tag added to the natural causes but let's face it Occam's razor shaves God away in this scenario.

Basically an evolutionary version of creation is a materialist one with the term, "God" added to it. It's a deist scenario really.

The point was that under this scenario there is no sense to why God allows suffering but under a biblical perspective the whole theology is different, because God never causes bad things, He only let's them occur as part of the fallen system.

It wasn't even a contentious point, it's only an explanation that your starting assumptions change depending upon what type of theism you argue as an atheist. You were meant to see that rather obvious thing.

Tangle writes:

you could at least give the impression of having a brain as well as a mouth.

I'm missing Faith already.

Give you enough rope, you hang yourself. You're proving my point you only exist to throw ad-homs at creationists because you don't really have any arguments to reason out.

Tangle writes:

Secondly, if a god created all this stuff while in a whimsical mood, he's not going to be called powerless by anyone - just utterly callous and uncaring. Merciless is a religious trope that no atheist would fall for.

Wow, we're down to debating what word mike used.

Gee what's next, the words I spell wrong?

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2020 2:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2020 3:23 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 141 by GDR, posted 04-15-2020 4:48 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4686
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 138 of 143 (875161)
04-15-2020 3:10 PM


Tangle writes:

Secondly, if a god created all this stuff while in a whimsical mood, he's not going to be called powerless by anyone - just utterly callous and uncaring.

Just to be clear for the readers; I said these things about a strawman-atheist-god that would basically use evolution and disease like cancer to slowly evolve things.

I was NOT saying that about the Lord my God. Jesus healed disease when He was on earth, and said that, "a kingdom divided against itself shall fall", meaning that God does NOT use disease as part of a slow, evolutionary process. That would be the god of atheism that would do that, which contradicts what Jesus said.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 139 of 143 (875164)
04-15-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by mike the wiz
04-15-2020 2:49 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
MtW writes:

They have a strawman version of God.

'They' do not exist. You live in a weird outlier of a country - a modern, prosperous democracy with a primitive belief system still in place so your view of what an atheist is feels early 19th century to me and much of the rest of the Western world.

Atheists are just people; almost all of them never even think of god or participate in any of these discussions. God is not a version of anything, just like elves aren't. Those of us that get involved in discussions with weird people like you are exceptions. Probably just as weird in our own way. Just a damn site more rational.

But nothing I can say will change you mind about what's in atheist's minds. You need your devils. The vast majority of atheists never give you and your gods a second thought. They're non-existent and therefore irrelevant.

They're for all purposes one and the same thing.

This is pure idiocy. There are billions of believers of all sorts of religions that also accept evolution. But I suspect you'd call them all atheists too?

God never causes bad things, He only let's them occur as part of the fallen system.

Oh please... Neglect is just as big a crime.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 2:49 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 3:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4686
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 140 of 143 (875166)
04-15-2020 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Tangle
04-15-2020 3:23 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
Tangle writes:

They' do not exist. You live in a weird outlier of a country - a modern, prosperous democracy with a primitive belief system still in place so your view of what an atheist is feels early 19th century to me and much of the rest of the Western world.

No, this is out of context of what I was saying. I was saying some atheists like that guy who done the talk and the atheists that clapped after he gave the talk, present a strawman version of god.

So, my, "view of what an atheist is" based on your telepathic abilities to read my mind are incorrect guesses about what I, "feel".

What I think about atheists as people has nothing to do with what I was arguing, Tangle.

Tangle writes:

Those of us that get involved in discussions with weird people like you are exceptions. Probably just as weird in our own way. Just a damn site more rational.

This is yet again the typical bare assertion fallacy evolutionists here love to use where they venerate one group and villianise the other group.

It's kind of ironic given rational thinking teaches us that of any two groups those groups will consist of individuals so you can't then falsely dichotomize two groups and treat one group according to certain traits and another group according to negative traits.

A, "damn site more rational".

What does rational wiki teach about this comment? It's an assertion, a bare assertion. You simply say it because you want to PRETEND to have the supremacy, pretend to be superior, but your arguments are like watching a plane crash.

Tangle writes:

This is pure idiocy. There are billions of believers of all sorts of religions that also accept evolution. But I suspect you'd call them all atheists too?

No. That's a strawman fallacy Mr More Rational. My point was about how the evolutionary version of theism is basically just in 100% agreement with the materialist version meaning you can use Occam's razor to shave, "God" away.

So with theistic evolutions of various religions, basically it's to adopt a materialist version of history then add God like you add salt and vinegar.

"Idiocy" is just a question-begging-epithet, I am not an idiot, but it pleases you on some irrational, sinful level to call me things I am clearly not. This is a sample of atheist morality in my book, you simply don't care about the bad things you say to people, having a thick skin and a heart of stone.

Tangle writes:

Oh please... Neglect is just as big a crime.

That's the judgement of an atheist, a subjective moral comment only based on your own whim. God does not, "neglect", we are told that God allows bad things to happen in the bible because of a sinful world.

The issue of the problem of good and evil is a big, big subject though and would deserve more than this simplistic comment. Even believers struggle to understand all that God allows and it is a serious test for us, however we choose to trust in God because of what the word says for example;
"My ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Tangle writes:

But nothing I can say will change you mind about what's in atheist's minds. You need your devils. The vast majority of atheists never give you and your gods a second thought.

The problem is my mind doesn't think any of the things you think it thinks. And what you state here goes without saying anyway. I know atheists, my brother is one and we never even debate because unlike you he isn't an antagonist against Christians like you.

I know that, "atheist" is just a word, I know many types of, "atheists" and have come across many types. You are basically an anti-theist troll. You can't see what you are at all.

Just stating that two add two is four to me, is a bizarre tactic some atheists use against me. They seem to believe that if they state something very elementary and basic that this somehow PROVES I didn't know that captain-obvious thing.

That is, "weird" to me. For why would I not see obvious things when I see so very many things you do not see? Is it dunning-kruger effect perhaps, the belief you are superior?

I feel no need to insult you and say that you are an idiot or have half a brain yet you call yourself the rationalist. To me the rationalist is the guy at EFF that doesn't behave in these ways. People like Popoi, Piasan, Goku. Those three atheists haven't attacked me in three years as much as you have today.

That doesn't speak of anything rational to me. It confirms to me you have a hard heart because of a sin-nature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2020 3:23 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2020 5:28 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 143 by GDR, posted 04-28-2020 3:59 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 141 of 143 (875177)
04-15-2020 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by mike the wiz
04-15-2020 2:49 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
MTW writes:

But that type of atheist-strawman-god cannot logically exist because of the mutually exclusive tenets of each religion. For example with Christianity, it doesn't follow that God would answer the prayers of Muslims.

Hi Mike As a Christian I would just like to respond to what you have posted. Firstly, I have to strongly disagree with the quoted statement. Partly because it is in opposition to the general theme of the New Testament view of the whole Bible and how God interacts with His creation. The Bible is very clear that God, as we see in the person of Jesus, is the God who is there for all mankind, regardless of doctrine.

Secondly it is an anti-scriptural position. This is from Matthew:

quote:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
As we can see God answered the prayer of a Roman Centurion who wouldn't have been Jewish and of course Christianity didn't exist at the time.

Another one from Luke

quote:
"As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance and called out in a loud voice, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!” When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed. One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan. Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”
Here was one of the hated Samaritans that Jesus healed. Jesus didn't care about his doctrine, He just loved and cared about everyone.

Look again at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus was clearly making the point that it wasn't about our theology but about responding to God's call on our lives to love our neighbour. As I said, the Samaritans and the Jews were not at all well disposed to one another. I would contend that if Jesus was here telling that parable today it would be about the Good Muslim.

Also I take issue with your view of evolution. I am fine if someone wants to argue against it on a non-biased academic basis, if one has the credentials to do that. However to argue against it on Biblical grounds, all it does is make Christianity look ridiculous. Genesis when read through a mythological lens gives us wonderful insights into the Christian faith. Those insights get muddled or lost when we try to understand it in the way that we would a science text or newspaper.

I think that from a Christian POV we should marvel at this incredible process of evolution that has resulted in the fact that we exist, and thank God for it.

I like Faith but her response when clear contradictions in the Bible are pointed out to her her response generally is that there aren't contradictions. I don't know if that is your view or not but from what I have read it suggests that it is.

At any rate, I'm glad you're here.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 2:49 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 142 of 143 (875179)
04-15-2020 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by mike the wiz
04-15-2020 3:42 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
MtW writes:

No, this is out of context of what I was saying.

Yeh right. That'll be why you built your whole story around it.

No. That's a strawman fallacy Mr More Rational. My point was about how the evolutionary version of theism is basically just in 100% agreement with the materialist version meaning you can use Occam's razor to shave, "God" away.

So with theistic evolutions of various religions, basically it's to adopt a materialist version of history then add God like you add salt and vinegar.

"Idiocy" is just a question-begging-epithet, I am not an idiot, but it pleases you on some irrational, sinful level to call me things I am clearly not. This is a sample of atheist morality in my book, you simply don't care about the bad things you say to people, having a thick skin and a heart of stone.

More horse shit. You continue to conflate atheism and evolution; just stop it, it makes you and your arguments look idiotic. The fact that you do it deliberately and regularly just makes it culpable as well as stupid.

God does not, "neglect", we are told that God allows bad things to happen in the bible because of a sinful world.

Since when does 'we are told' amount to an argument? If you neglect your child and he dies you are as guilty of murder as if you'd shot him in the head.

I know atheists, my brother is one and we never even debate because unlike you he isn't an antagonist against Christians like you.

Whoopydo, you know an atheist! How exotic! You're making my point for me.

I know that, "atheist" is just a word, I know many types of, "atheists" and have come across many types. You are basically an anti-theist troll. You can't see what you are at all.

Like I said, most atheists don't give a hoot. Those that do hoot are few and a bit weird. I'm one of them. You're one of the other kind. Best to read what I say, not what you'd like me to say.

I feel no need to insult you and say that you are an idiot or have half a brain yet you call yourself the rationalist. To me the rationalist is the guy at EFF that doesn't behave in these ways. People like Popoi, Piasan, Goku. Those three atheists haven't attacked me in three years as much as you have today.

It takes all sorts Micky, if you come here with your chest puffed out spouting crap you're going to get all sorts of responses. I'm at the harsher end of primitive Christian loathing. I do actively detest your kind of false and warped Christianity. I think your ideas need to constantly laughed at for what they are, what they represent and the pure and dangerous ignorance that lies behind them. It's an industry.

Too bad if you don't like it, but you'll run away again soon, declaring victory over the heathen hoards.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 3:42 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 143 of 143 (875553)
04-28-2020 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by mike the wiz
04-15-2020 3:42 PM


Re: An Easter Miracle!
Here is a Christian response in "Time" magazine to that deals with Covid19 by N T Wright, who is generally conceded to be the leading New Testament scholar that we have today.
Christianity Offers No Answers About the Coronavirus. It's Not Supposed To

Here is a part of it.

quote:
No doubt the usual silly suspects will tell us why God is doing this to us. A punishment? A warning? A sign? These are knee-jerk would-be Christian reactions in a culture which, generations back, embraced rationalism: everything must have an explanation. But supposing it doesn’t? Supposing real human wisdom doesn’t mean being able to string together some dodgy speculations and say, “So that’s all right then?” What if, after all, there are moments such as T. S. Eliot recognized in the early 1940s, when the only advice is to wait without hope, because we’d be hoping for the wrong thing?

Rationalists (including Christian rationalists) want explanations; Romantics (including Christian romantics) want to be given a sigh of relief. But perhaps what we need more than either is to recover the biblical tradition of lament. Lament is what happens when people ask, “Why?” and don’t get an answer. It’s where we get to when we move beyond our self-centered worry about our sins and failings and look more broadly at the suffering of the world. It’s bad enough facing a pandemic in New York City or London. What about a crowded refugee camp on a Greek island? What about Gaza? Or South Sudan?


BTW still waiting for a response to this post. Message 141


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by mike the wiz, posted 04-15-2020 3:42 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
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