Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8965 total)
58 online now:
CosmicChimp, DrJones*, GDR, JonF, kjsimons, Meddle, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), RAZD (9 members, 49 visitors)
Newest Member: javier martinez
Post Volume: Total: 873,113 Year: 4,861/23,288 Month: 1,766/1,286 Week: 80/353 Day: 7/20 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Covid-19 and religion.
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6906
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 106 of 131 (873382)
03-15-2020 10:03 AM


Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
Speaking of managing a disaster as if it's a PR problem, the Chinese government has been trying to suppress negative reports of its mishandling of the Covid-19 outbreak and attempting to put a happy face on its efforts.

From the New York Times:

As China Cracks Down on Coronavirus Coverage, Journalists Fight Back

The article describes Chinese journalists' frustrations with the government's control over the media and the steps of some journalists, from both state-run agencies and commercial entities as well as "citizen journalists", to evade censorship to try to hold incompetent officials to account and to get information out to the people.

“This time the government’s control of free speech has directly damaged the interests and lives of ordinary people,” said Li Datong, a retired newspaper editor in Beijing. “Everyone knows this kind of big disaster happens when you don’t tell the truth.”

Considering the Trump Administration's attempt to muzzle government health officials and keep the message in the hands of the PR specialists, we're lucky in the US that the government doesn't have such a well-developed censorship apparatus as the People's Republic.


But [Frederick] Douglass was not gone; he was merely dead. -- David W. Blight

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:29 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 131 (873387)
03-15-2020 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Chiroptera
03-15-2020 10:03 AM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
What is the evidence for any health officials being muzzled?

I agree that Trump goes way too far trying to make it sound like everything's just hunky dory but the health officials don't seem to be muzzled. We hear from then too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Chiroptera, posted 03-15-2020 10:03 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 2:13 PM Faith has responded
 Message 120 by Chiroptera, posted 03-16-2020 11:07 AM Faith has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4854
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 108 of 131 (873393)
03-15-2020 12:25 PM


The Man is Fucking Evil!
Germany tries to stop US from luring away firm seeking coronavirus vaccine

quote:
Berlin is trying to stop Washington from persuading a German company seeking a coronavirus vaccine to move its research to the United States, prompting German politicians to insist no country should have a monopoly on any future vaccine.

Welt am Sonntag quoted an unidentified German government source as saying Trump was trying to secure the scientists’ work exclusively, and would do anything to get a vaccine for the United States, “but only for the United States.”



Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 12:28 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 2:39 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 03-16-2020 12:38 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 131 (873394)
03-15-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by AZPaul3
03-15-2020 12:25 PM


Re: The Man is Fucking Evil!
Gosh, I can hardly wait to find out the other side of this story.

Y'know, whatever we contribute to any important worldwide problem we share with the world, it isn't just for us.

But again, I wonder what the other side of the story is.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 03-15-2020 12:25 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 110 of 131 (873407)
03-15-2020 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
03-15-2020 11:29 AM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
Classifying meetings means that the discussions can’t be repeated.

Message 60


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 2:35 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 131 (873408)
03-15-2020 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by PaulK
03-15-2020 2:13 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
So you use a tendentious word like "muzzling" for what obviously has two points of view and a reasonable explanation for the decision, so you can make your own point of view sound like the more reasonable one. I wonder what fallacy applies to that kind of manipulation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 2:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 2:44 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 131 (873411)
03-15-2020 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by AZPaul3
03-15-2020 12:25 PM


Re: The Man is Fucking Evil!
So I read the article and of course it's a more complicated situation than the kneejerk leftist debunkery implies. Sounds like a common sort of transaction that many nations engage in, and many German companies were considered.

A spokesman for the US is even quoted saying what I just said, that the US shares its knowledge with the whole world, so you can drop that accusation. The accusation was simply a quote from ONE person too, a typical ploy by the leftist mentality. They may find one person saying something they like although dozens of others disagree and they'll headline the one. We see it all the time in headlines and stories concerning anything to do with Trump.

Perhaps this one company was considering the offer, though they deny any move toward acquisition, but the German government felt they had to intervene?

What's "evil" about any of this? Just the accusation itself perhaps.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 03-15-2020 12:25 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 113 of 131 (873412)
03-15-2020 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
03-15-2020 2:35 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
quote:
So you use a tendentious word like "muzzling" for what obviously has two points of view and a reasonable explanation for the decision, so you can make your own point of view sound like the more reasonable one.

I have yet to see a reasonable explanation for the decision. If you have one please present it.

Also, the word “muzzling” wasn’t my choice - and it does not appear in my post. So why you are trying to blame me for it, I don’t know.

quote:
I wonder what fallacy applies to that kind of manipulation.

Unless you actually have a reasonable explanation it seems that the attempted manipulation is on your part.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 2:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 2:49 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 131 (873413)
03-15-2020 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by PaulK
03-15-2020 2:44 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
You are right, it was Chiroptera who used the word "muzzling." I apologize.

The reason given for classifying the meeting was that China was to be discussed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 2:44 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 03-15-2020 2:54 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 116 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 2:59 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 115 of 131 (873414)
03-15-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
03-15-2020 2:49 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
And that is not a valid reason. Period!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 2:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 116 of 131 (873417)
03-15-2020 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
03-15-2020 2:49 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
quote:
The reason given for classifying the meeting was that China was to be discussed.

So you claim that all discussions that involve China in any way must be classified ? It hardly seems an adequate reason.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 2:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 3:32 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 131 (873440)
03-15-2020 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by PaulK
03-15-2020 2:59 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
Oh well, another weird twisting I have to undo. Sigh. That is the reason THEY gave, I didn't give a reason. But since you ask I would speculate that China is a very vexed subject in connection with this virus. Hm?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 2:59 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 3:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 118 of 131 (873443)
03-15-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
03-15-2020 3:32 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
quote:
Oh well, another weird twisting I have to undo. Sigh.

And the usual false accusations continue. A perfectly reasonable question is not “twisting”

quote:
That is the reason THEY gave, I didn't give a reason.

You were asked if there was a reasonable explanation. That is the one you chose to cite. Without any comment. If you did not think it was reasonable then you should have said so.

quote:
But since you ask I would speculate that China is a very vexed subject in connection with this virus. Hm?

I hardly think that a risk of offending China is important enough to keep critical staff out of a meeting. Do you ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 03-15-2020 4:00 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 119 of 131 (873445)
03-15-2020 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
03-15-2020 3:40 PM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
Interestingly it was the medical and logistics people that were excluded while the political and economics folk were given access.

Politics and economics take precedence over public health it seems.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 03-15-2020 3:40 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6906
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 120 of 131 (873492)
03-16-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
03-15-2020 11:29 AM


Re: Chinese journalists try to resist censorship
...but the health officials don't seem to be muzzled. We hear from then too.

It is true that actual information has been getting out, but at the beginning it certainly appeared to be people speaking up because the Administration itself wasn't letting accurate information out.

Anyway, I've been looking for the article that I had in mind when I wrote that post, but I can't find it. I suspect it was the incident that PaulK brought up in his response to you and I misremembered the details.

At any rate, here is an article from Business Insider that brings up my concerns:

Trump barred a top health expert from speaking freely about the coronavirus. It's one of many ways the administration has muzzled scientists.

I don't have a feel for how reliable this site is in general, but the article does have a handy list of how the Trump Administration has interfered with the dissemination of scientific information or prevented policy decisions from being informed by accurate science.


But [Frederick] Douglass was not gone; he was merely dead. -- David W. Blight

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-15-2020 11:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 03-16-2020 11:10 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020