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Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 148 of 171 (874208)
03-26-2020 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Stile
03-24-2020 3:29 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Stile writes:

The point isn't that some obvious cases exist.
The point is that many non-obvious cases exist.

And, if you draw a line, the non-obvious ones lead to destroying innocent lives. Obviously.

Therefore, the questions isn't "do I think Ted Bundy was obvious or not?"
It doesn't really matter.

The question is: If anyone (you?) wants to try and draw a line - where should it be? How does it make the non-obvious cases easier to identify correctly?

Answer that question to remove all doubt of harming innocent people - and you'll have my vote.


I don't disagree with your argument Stile but I'd like to add something to it.

I don't think that there is any question about the guilt of Ted Bundy. I would also agree with Faith that he has forfeited any right that he has to life.

However, when he was executed it required someone to carry out that execution. Yes, it was state sanctioned but that doesn't change the fact that we still require someone to carry it out, albeit voluntarily.

We know enough about PTSD that we know that killing someone isn't done without having an effect on the one doing the killing, and for that matter on others involved in the act.

I would argue that every time an execution is carried out, that to one degree or another it dehumanizes the person that is the one carrying out the execution.

There are times no doubt that by taking a life, it will result in the saving of more lives and has to be done, but the execution of Ted Bundy does not fall into that category.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Stile, posted 03-24-2020 3:29 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 03-27-2020 6:14 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 150 of 171 (874262)
03-27-2020 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ringo
03-27-2020 6:14 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
ringo writes:

It dehumanizes the whole society. You can't affirm the value of life by killing people. We should be telling the Ted Bundys, "We don't kill people, no matter what. We're better than that."

I was thinking after I had made that last post that I should have included but never got around to editing it.

Your statement is bang on.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 03-27-2020 6:14 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 152 of 171 (874466)
04-02-2020 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
03-20-2020 11:11 AM


Judging God or Biblical Misunderstanding?
Faith writes:

I understand choosing sin over God and being willing to take the consequences, stupid though that is, but I don't understand how you could let your flawed moral standards judge God and reject Him on that flimsy basis. I resent your trying to pin your puny idea of morality on me as if that is the standard we should all adhere to. Others here do the same thing. I don't judge God because He's God and He made it all and He knows what He is doing. The report of His judgments should teach us about the terrors of the Moral Law. It's the height of foolishness to apply a self-centered human standard to God. "I am not like you" He has said. His judgments are hard for us to accept, and we wouldn't accept them if human beings came up with them, but …. God's judgments are omniscient. And really they should teach us just how terrible are the operations of the Moral Law. We should learn that and learn from it the fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom, but instead fallen humanity has the effrontery to judge God by our ignorant vague and foggy standards. That's all you've done and it's all others here do. God isn't a human being, He's a terrifying Judge and yet a Judge who offers mercy to us fallen creatures. Oh well, there's no point.

I probably shouldn't enter into this but I guess I will anyway.

The thing is Faith is that Aussie isn't judging God. Aussie and others are judging your view of God. In actuality they are judging your understanding of how the Scriptures are meant to be understood.

I think that you would agree that the Bible from Genesis to Jesus tells us that we are made in God's image. I don't have any idea what God looks like but as a Christian I believe that in order to try and image God, (and failing), I should look at the one who imaged Him perfectly.

Jesus as the embodied Word of God in Jesus, is not compatible with an inerrant Bible, for the myriad of reasons such as commanding genocide and public stoning, which we have gone over numerous times before.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 11:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 04-03-2020 4:43 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 155 of 171 (874487)
04-03-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
04-03-2020 4:43 AM


Re: Judging God or Biblical Misunderstanding?
Faith writes:

This happens all the time at EvC. In fact I kept thinking that as I watched this series. There is no point in arguing anything here from my point of view, because everyone here already *knows* the truth -- about absolutely everything I say too. Not one thing I say in defense of my own political or religious opinions could ever be true although you all think all I I have to do is produce the evidence. Ha Ha. You don't understand the logic or the psychology of what you are all doing here.

Hi Faith
Let me say this. I don't "know" that what I believe about God is correct. I believe it on faith. I have no doubt that at least some of what I believe is wrong, with the problem being I don't what part of what I believe is wrong. I just muddle along like everyone else.

Also you have your beliefs about the nature of God, what He has done and what He is doing. I'd suggest though that you actually worship a quite different god than what you believe in.

I'll give you a hypothetical. Let's say you had a fundamentalist Christian and Biblical inerrantist as president. You would of course say that would be wonderful. Now your president decrees that anyone caught in adultery should be publicly executed in a cruel manner as a lesson to others. Also, your president decrees that as Muslims are coming into the US and influencing Americans, and causing some to question their Christianity and maybe even converting to Islam, that the US should start a genocidal war on Islamic nations. God has told him that this must be done.

I contend, at least I'd hope, that you would be properly horrified, and would argue that you had no idea that he/she would do this when you voted for him/her. I would also contend that if it was you that had been elected president that you would have no thought of doing such a thing yourself. However, in this thread and others you argue that God is beyond our human understanding of justice and so you accept and believe that when He commanded genocide and public stoning He was exercising justice as only God understands it.

So again, I am suggesting that you don't actually worship the god that you believe in, and thankfully so.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 04-03-2020 4:43 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-03-2020 4:50 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 04-04-2020 4:17 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 161 of 171 (874513)
04-04-2020 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
04-04-2020 4:17 PM


Re: Judging God or Biblical Misunderstanding?
Hi Faith

I only have a minute but I can respond more fully later. I apologize if I made this sound personal because it certainly wasn't meant that way. The point was not that a fundamentalist Christian president could, or ever would do such a thing. The point was, that they wouldn't. I was saying that you, or any other sane fundamentalist Christian, would consider never even for a second doing such an abhorrent thing.

The problem is that an inerrant reading of the Bible does say that God commanded a very close parallel to the hypothetical I spelled out.

So even though you agree that doing such a thing would be reprehensible, you are ok with accepting the idea that God did just that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 04-04-2020 4:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 04-04-2020 4:46 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5372
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 165 of 171 (874522)
04-04-2020 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
04-04-2020 7:31 PM


Re: bias/feelings over evidence rule here, buttressed by more bias/feelings over evidence
Faith writes:

Judging by your feelings versus by the facts/evidence. How often that happens and how often people who THINK they are judging by the facts and evidence are not.

OK Faith. Let's look at the facts and evidence.

This is from Deuteronomy 7:

quote:
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Contrast this from Matthew 5 and the Jesus’ “Sermon on the Mount”.

quote:
5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

How can you possibly contrast those two Biblical quotes and then claim that the nature of God can be seen in both quotes?

And again in Deuteronomy 20

quote:
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Contrast this again with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5
quote:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Once again. The views of the nature of God that we sometimes, but not usually, see in the OT are completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum. In Deuteronomy we are shown a cruel vengeful deity, very similar to the deities of their pagan neighbours, as opposed to the loving merciful God in the NT.

Here are some quotes from the book of Joshua.

quote:
Joshua 6 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. 27 So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land.

quote:
Joshua 8 1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land. 2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.”
24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.
25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai.
26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.

Again contrast this from Luke 6

quote:
Luke 6 27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

This is again the words of Jesus who was a 1st century Jew living in a 1st century Jewish world under the brutal and total dominance of the Romans. They were in the promised land but still in excile.

This is from Leviticus 24

quote:
19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.

What does Jesus tell us in Matthew 5
quote:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Jesus actually says, as He does in other places that the early prophets got it wrong.

This from Numbers 15

quote:
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

What does Jesus say in Luke 6

quote:
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus even tells us to pray to be forgiven as we forgive others.
I could go on but that is certainly enough. I am afraid Faith that I do not understand how your idea of God’s justice can be so different from one period to the next. I believe in the God as personified in Jesus who is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
The belief that you can harmonize beliefs in an inerrant Bible with the life and teaching of Jesus is just plainly obviously wrong. I’ll go with Jesus.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 04-04-2020 7:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 04-05-2020 12:27 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
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