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Author Topic:   Moral issues and the Justice system or something like that
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 150 (873848)
03-20-2020 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Aussie
03-20-2020 10:05 AM


This time around it's more offensive than hard to understand
I know, I know, Jesus did away with the stoning. He told the adulterous to "Go and sin no more."

But then he went and mandated Eternal torture for the adulterers. He lists that sin by name in Revelation as part of the group that will be cast into the Lake of Fire. So...are you going to commit to the proposition that young people and adults who have sex before and outside of marriage deserve to be burned alive and not allowed to die? You aren't going to answer this directly I think, but ... *sigh*

[

Unrepented sin is what Jesus is addressing in Revelation. He meant it when he said "Go and sin no more." People who continue in a sin without any repentance are among the wicked slated for the Lake of Fire. It's rather a long list, why pick out adultery?

Since the last post I made I came to the conclusion that you had been a true believer and gave it up. That's been hard for me to believe about anyone but this time the passage in Hebrews came to mind, about how if a person who has tasted the supernatural realities of the faith fall away he can't be renewed to repentance. First time I ever applied that to anyone. There are others here it probably applies to also, people who did have a genuine Christian experience and life and yet fell away. It takes my breath away.

I understand choosing sin over God and being willing to take the consequences, stupid though that is, but I don't understand how you could let your flawed moral standards judge God and reject Him on that flimsy basis. I resent your trying to pin your puny idea of morality on me as if that is the standard we should all adhere to. Others here do the same thing. I don't judge God because He's God and He made it all and He knows what He is doing. The report of His judgments should teach us about the terrors of the Moral Law. It's the height of foolishness to apply a self-centered human standard to God. "I am not like you" He has said. His judgments are hard for us to accept, and we wouldn't accept them if human beings came up with them, but …. God's judgments are omniscient. And really they should teach us just how terrible are the operations of the Moral Law. We should learn that and learn from it the fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom, but instead fallen humanity has the effrontery to judge God by our ignorant vague and foggy standards. That's all you've done and it's all others here do. God isn't a human being, He's a terrifying Judge and yet a Judge who offers mercy to us fallen creatures. Oh well, there's no point.

I'm sorry really, I like you. Not so sure of that though after you denounced me in the previous post. THAT was extremely offensive. Perhaps this post is as offensive to you.

-----------------------------
AbE: I think we really don't have any appreciation of the real offense of sin to God, or to the Moral Law. It seems trivial to us. Sex outside marriage by young people seems trivial, right? What's the big deal? But we aren't in a position to see what such an offense does to the fabric of the Moral Law so to speak. We are creatures made in the image of God, we have enormous powers we hardly recognize. Every sin, every act against what I think of as the fabric of Moral Law, does something drastically destructive to that Moral Law. Such acts rend the spiritual universe. ALL sin does, llying, stealing, murder, coveting, as well as adultery in all its forms. Has to do with the nature of the Moral Law which we aren't in a position to judge. Our sins cause earthquakes and hurricanes, provoke all the judgments of God. And the Covid 19 virus.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 10:05 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 12:57 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 150 (873849)
03-20-2020 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by JonF
03-20-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Kill the Adults and Leave the Children?
Whut?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by JonF, posted 03-20-2020 10:40 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by JonF, posted 03-20-2020 12:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 258
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 138 of 150 (873850)
03-20-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
03-20-2020 10:31 AM


Re: Kill the Adults and Leave the Children?
Just asserting that I show no knowledge of this or that without any evidence I might try to answer, is very bad form and I can only assert in return that I knoow what I'm talking about.

You've been here for 19 years, and posted over 35,000 times. You can't hide any of those words. The evidence is there. You can certainly assert that you know what you're talking about...you assert all kinds of ludicrous and untenable things all the time. but assertion does not require reality

After all the work I've done on my arguments I find this blanket dismissal out of the blue obnoxious in the extreme.

Except they aren't out of the blue. A lot of people with a lot of education and experience in the relevant fields have painstakingly, over many years, pointed out the errors in your thinking, and gaping holes in your knowledge, and guessed what you did???

...blanket dismissal out of the blue obnoxious in the extreme.

Yes, you have been obnoxious in the extreme.

Who are you to speak for science or for anything?

Well, my name is Rob, and I'm not anyone too important.

If you check my post history, you will see I have rarely interacted in any science forum here. Do you know why? Because I don't have any relevant training in science. My brother has a couple of Masters degrees in the Biological sciences, but not me. So because I am really unqualified to speak in the science forms I just read them and learn from those who do. You should try it sometime, it's fun.
I'm not completely without some knowledge of science. I went into aviation, and currently have around 200 international airline pilots flying all over the world that I helped train...several hundred hours in class with each of them. (A couple of dozen pilots per class)

Aviation can be a bit sciencey, but I'm not a scientist, so prefer to take a passive role in those forums, so you are again incorrect in your assertion that I have ever attempted to speak for science here or anywhere.

As far as your "Speak for anything" bit...yes. I do feel I'm someone who can speak about some things, apparently to your disapproval. I have a couple of degrees from Bible believing Christian Colleges...I have studied the theology, Bible doctrines, NT Greek, and hermaneutics courses they offered, so I do feel I can talk about theology in the light of Scripture. I am a moral creature, so I do feel qualified to participate in your thread about Morality. So...here I am!

You just popped up out of the fog, having never said a word about any of it before.

We have interacted for several years here, and I've been a member since 2006. Does that count as popping up out of the fog?

Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 10:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 11:44 AM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 150 (873851)
03-20-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Aussie
03-20-2020 11:38 AM


Re: Kill the Adults and Leave the Children?
I came here originally in 2001 but wasn't here at all for nine or ten of those 19 years.

Since you admit you don't feel qualified to talk about science, commenting on what I've argued is particularly offensive.

When I say you just popped up out of the fog, I mean on the current topic.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 11:38 AM Aussie has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5956
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 140 of 150 (873852)
03-20-2020 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
03-20-2020 11:33 AM


Re: Kill the Adults and Leave the Children?
I responded to your email message 132. Follow the reply chain back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 11:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 258
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(4)
Message 141 of 150 (873853)
03-20-2020 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
03-20-2020 11:11 AM


Re: This time around it's more offensive than hard to understand
People who continue in a sin without any repentance are among the wicked slated for the Lake of Fire. It's rather a long list, why pick out adultery?

Actually, I made quite a long list back in post 127. You are the one who picked extra-marital sex out the long list, so I went with it. I agree that the list is very long, and the punishment for all of them is death. Death and eternal burning.

Since the last post I made I came to the conclusion that you had been a true believer and gave it up.

That's not your conclusion to draw. The reality of my life is independent of your conclusions about it, and doesn't care about your conclusions.

but I don't understand how you could let your flawed moral standards judge God and reject Him on that flimsy basis. I resent your trying to pin your puny idea of morality on me as if that is the standard we should all adhere to.

My morality is simple on this thread Faith. In the topics we've discussed so far I've stated that

1. It is desperately evil to kill children and babies because their parents did something wrong.

2. It is also desperately evil to kill children and babies because of their parents' religion.

3. It is desperately evil to kill young people because they got horny and mated before marriage.

4. It is desperately evil to kill adults who have sex outside of marriage.

5. It is desperately evil to torture living humans who suffer under your hand.

I mean, in a normal world these would be no-brainers. Yet you find yourself here defending each of these propositions. You are wrapped up in some torture/death mindset, and you feel bad for me for escaping it into freedom? You are like some Kim Jong Un acolyte who can't understand why his friend escaped from North Korea and fled to the United States, even hoping he might change his mind and return one day. Yeah, but no thanks. I prefer offering life to offering torture and death.

How do you call these propositions

your puny idea of morality
?

What part of preserving life, and eschewing torture is puny?

I don't denounce you Faith. I unequivocally denounce your bloodthirsty deity and his morality of death and torture. I denounce any morality that undercuts America, and what it means to be American. I don't denounce you, I denounce the mind trap that controls you and makes you defend killing children.

Otherwise you seem like a very nice person.

Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 11:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 7:05 PM Aussie has responded
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 7:59 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 150 (873877)
03-20-2020 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Aussie
03-20-2020 12:57 PM


Re: This time around it's more offensive than hard to understand
Good grief, you object to my concluding that you did believe as a true Christian but gave it up??? As opposed to thinking you never really believed? Speaking of course from the Christian perspective. Oh well, I guess I can't say anything at all. One would think Christian theology would be the standard, but you'd rather make it up for yourself?

You continue to talk as if God were a mere human being instead of the Spirit who permeates every bit of the space around us.

The flawed moral standard I referred to wasn't specifically yours, it's the human standard since we are so unable to grasp God's.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 12:57 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 8:01 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 150 (873879)
03-20-2020 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Aussie
03-20-2020 12:57 PM


Re: This time around it's more offensive than hard to understand
People who continue in a sin without any repentance are among the wicked slated for the Lake of Fire. It's rather a long list, why pick out adultery?

Actually, I made quite a long list back in post 127. You are the one who picked extra-marital sex out the long list, so I went with it. I agree that the list is very long, and the punishment for all of them is death. Death and eternal burning.

I took a look at that message and don't see a list of sins, rather a list of what you say makes Christians like everybody else. I picked out the two sins on it, divorce and adultery. But the list in Revelation is a list of sins. I'd have to go look that up now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 12:57 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 258
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 144 of 150 (873880)
03-20-2020 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
03-20-2020 7:05 PM


Re: This time around it's more offensive than hard to understand
Good grief, you object to my concluding that you did believe as a true Christian but gave it up??? As opposed to thinking you never really believed?

It's just a gentle reminder that your personal conclusions have no bearing on reality.

One would think Christian theology would be the standard, but you'd rather make it up for yourself?

I mean, I have no doubt that American jurisprudence is far, far, FAR superior to the the Law of Moses.

The flawed moral standard I referred to wasn't specifically yours, it's the human standard since we are so unable to grasp God's.

I really don't understand what you are trying to get at here. I said:

1. It is desperately evil to kill children and babies because their parents did something wrong.

2. It is also desperately evil to kill children and babies because of their parents' religion.

3. It is desperately evil to kill young people because they got horny and mated before marriage.

4. It is desperately evil to kill adults who have sex outside of marriage.

5. It is desperately evil to torture living humans who suffer under your hand.

Can you please point out which part of these statements about morality is flawed. I literally fail to see a single flaw here.

No point in continuing Aussie. I wish you well.

You started this thread Faith. You wanted to talk about morality, and I said, "Okay."
I feel like you are just doing here what you always do. You can't defend what you say you believe, so you run away. You always end up running away. You've spent years running, and I see no reason why you should stop now.

Let's just be clear that I am willing to continue discussing if you are, but... you are apparently running.

Thanks for the well wish, but you've already warned me just a few pages ago that your Deity is ready to burn me alive.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 7:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 03-20-2020 8:13 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35110
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 150 (873881)
03-20-2020 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Aussie
03-20-2020 8:01 PM


You can't judge God from our perspective
I NEVER "run away," I don't know what gets interpreted that way but it's tiresome, maybe just that I think a discussion has come to an end but the other person doesn't? Or I get bored with it or distracted by something else? That there's just no more to say? That I've said my bit and the other person has said his and what else is there? Or sometimes I don't have an answer, and that ends it? I don't know. But it's true that I shouldn't say a conversation is over when it may not be. It just seemed that we'd reached an impasse.

Your list of moral examples would be morally wrong speaking of human beings but God is not on our level. He sees into the inner workings of our minds. My comment about flawed morality was general but since you insist on that list the point is that our morality can't apply to God even if it applies to us because we don't have His perspective on what sin is and what consequences are deserved. One thing we can't see is how sin accumulates over time and generations. All we see is the present and don't see that very well. I really don't understand how you or anyone can speak of God in such broad human terms.

I really don't have a problem judging reality at all by the way.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Aussie, posted 03-20-2020 8:01 PM Aussie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32356
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 146 of 150 (873882)
03-20-2020 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
03-20-2020 8:13 PM


Re: You can't judge God from our perspective
Why can't we judge God from our perspective?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 3914
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 147 of 150 (874088)
03-24-2020 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
03-14-2020 9:48 AM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Faith writes:

Was there any doubt about Ted Bundy? Or the case I've described for that matter?

The point isn't that some obvious cases exist.
The point is that many non-obvious cases exist.

And, if you draw a line, the non-obvious ones lead to destroying innocent lives. Obviously.

Therefore, the questions isn't "do I think Ted Bundy was obvious or not?"
It doesn't really matter.

The question is: If anyone (you?) wants to try and draw a line - where should it be? How does it make the non-obvious cases easier to identify correctly?

Answer that question to remove all doubt of harming innocent people - and you'll have my vote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 03-14-2020 9:48 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 03-26-2020 4:04 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5151
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 148 of 150 (874208)
03-26-2020 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Stile
03-24-2020 3:29 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
Stile writes:

The point isn't that some obvious cases exist.
The point is that many non-obvious cases exist.

And, if you draw a line, the non-obvious ones lead to destroying innocent lives. Obviously.

Therefore, the questions isn't "do I think Ted Bundy was obvious or not?"
It doesn't really matter.

The question is: If anyone (you?) wants to try and draw a line - where should it be? How does it make the non-obvious cases easier to identify correctly?

Answer that question to remove all doubt of harming innocent people - and you'll have my vote.


I don't disagree with your argument Stile but I'd like to add something to it.

I don't think that there is any question about the guilt of Ted Bundy. I would also agree with Faith that he has forfeited any right that he has to life.

However, when he was executed it required someone to carry out that execution. Yes, it was state sanctioned but that doesn't change the fact that we still require someone to carry it out, albeit voluntarily.

We know enough about PTSD that we know that killing someone isn't done without having an effect on the one doing the killing, and for that matter on others involved in the act.

I would argue that every time an execution is carried out, that to one degree or another it dehumanizes the person that is the one carrying out the execution.

There are times no doubt that by taking a life, it will result in the saving of more lives and has to be done, but the execution of Ted Bundy does not fall into that category.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Stile, posted 03-24-2020 3:29 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

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 Message 149 by ringo, posted 03-27-2020 6:14 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18019
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 149 of 150 (874260)
03-27-2020 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by GDR
03-26-2020 4:04 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
GDR writes:

I would argue that every time an execution is carried out, that to one degree or another it dehumanizes the person that is the one carrying out the execution.


It dehumanizes the whole society. You can't affirm the value of life by killing people. We should be telling the Ted Bundys, "We don't kill people, no matter what. We're better than that."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 03-26-2020 4:04 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by GDR, posted 03-27-2020 6:33 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5151
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 150 of 150 (874262)
03-27-2020 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ringo
03-27-2020 6:14 PM


Re: Nathanial Woods - state sanctioned murder.
ringo writes:

It dehumanizes the whole society. You can't affirm the value of life by killing people. We should be telling the Ted Bundys, "We don't kill people, no matter what. We're better than that."

I was thinking after I had made that last post that I should have included but never got around to editing it.

Your statement is bang on.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 03-27-2020 6:14 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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