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Author Topic:   Continuing the Endless Discussion between GDR and traditional Protestantism
GDR
Member
Posts: 5373
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 16 of 103 (874577)
04-06-2020 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
04-06-2020 9:29 AM


Biblical Contradictions
Faith writes:

The God of both Old and New Testaments is the same God with different emphases and missions for the context.

I agree with that. It is simply that there is a gradual but progressive understanding of the nature of that one God within the OT up to the time of Jesus. I was pointing out contradictions within the OT itself as well.

Faith writes:

He is the same God, not the one you have invented.

It isn't a case of inventing God, it is a case of our understanding God. We worship the same God but don't agree completely about His nature. I read some of your discussions about Donald Trump. You think that he is a wonderful president and others think his is metaphorically the devil incarnate. However, you all agree that he is president.

Faith writes:

We've been here before and I'm sorry I'm so impatient but after years of arguing this I'm tired. If I get a second wind I'll come back to it and that sometimes happens. For now I'm sorry. I'm a believer in Biblical inerrancy and it serves me very very well.

I have to say this Faith. I realize that you have to simply deny the inconsistencies and in a lot of ways I'm ok with that. I have been in numerous churches, (I've moved around a fair bit), where most of the congregation would believe somewhat along the same lines that you do. Most of them just accept it and don't think much about. In your case you have spent time thinking about it which is a good thing.
Also, the vast majority of the people in those more fundamentalist communities are really good people, getting by day to day and loving their neighbours. The message in the Bible is about having hearts that love sacrificially and the theology of it all is definitely secondary. (I just happen to find it interesting.)

I'm sure that Biblical inerrancy is working well for you and that is a good thing. I would just add a note though that do remember it is Christianity and and not Bibleinanity. We worship a deity whose nature we can see embodied in the man Jesus not embodied in a book.

Faith writes:

The God whose judgments you despise and therefore whose mercy of the Cross you also must despise though you fail to see this point. Again, I'm sorry.

I despise what mankind has often done and one of those things is what mankind did to Jesus. I love what God did in resurrecting Him. Happy Easter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 9:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 11:42 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 103 (874579)
04-06-2020 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by GDR
04-06-2020 11:22 AM


Re: Biblical Contradictions
The God of both Old and New Testaments is the same God with different emphases and missions for the context.

I agree with that.

No you don't. You can only agree with it now by leaving out the whole discussion about how the God who decreed horrific slaughters as punishment of wicked tribes in the OT is not God. That is part of the portrait of the true God but you deny it so no, you do NOT agree with what I said.

It is simply that there is a gradual but progressive understanding of the nature of that one God within the OT up to the time of Jesus.

Again you are using a term in a different sense than traditional theology uses it. Yes there is a progressive revelation of the nature of God throughout the Bible, but what you actually mean by that is not a mere accumulation of depth to the portrait of God but a kind of "progression" that actually overturns earlier revelation, and that is not the same progressive revelation the traditional Church has in mind.

I was pointing out contradictions within the OT itself as well.

I still intended to answer the rest of your original post. TGhere are no contradictions in the OT except those you imagine either because you impute different meanings to the words or simply reject parts of the Bible.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 04-06-2020 11:22 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 04-06-2020 1:09 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 103 (874586)
04-06-2020 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
04-05-2020 12:20 AM


I think this is where I left off earlier.

And again in Deuteronomy 20
quote:
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Contrast this again with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5
quote:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


Once again. The views of the nature of God that we sometimes, but not usually, see in the OT are completely at the opposite ends of the spectrum. In Deuteronomy we are shown a cruel vengeful deity, very similar to the deities of their pagan neighbours, as opposed to the loving merciful God in the NT.

Actually I think I did respond to this, but I'll condense it here: There is no contradiction. The God who commands the complete destruction of the wicked tribes for the reasons I gave before is the same God who sends rain on just and unjust and requires mercy of us as individuals to our fellow human beings. Jesus' first coming was to save us from the Law that would condemn us for our sins for an eternity; on His second coming those who have refused to repent of their sins will be punished with the same ferocity you deny as part of the portrait of God.

Here are some quotes from the book of Joshua.

quote:
Joshua 6 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. 27 So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land.

quote:
Joshua 8 1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land. 2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.”
24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.
25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai.
26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.

Again contrast this from Luke 6

quote:
Luke 6 27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.

This is again the words of Jesus who was a 1st century Jew living in a 1st century Jewish world under the brutal and total dominance of the Romans. They were in the promised land but still in excile.

Again you confuse commands to an army with commands to individuals. Punishing crime is not the same thing as how we are to treat our fellow man as individuals. I really don't see how you can continue to make this mistake. We are not to take justice into our own hands, we are to commit it to the authorities in charge, even leave vengeance to God completely, but in ordinary human relations we are to submit to all kinds of injustices against ourselves. If you want me to admit that many of us fail at this that is certainly true. Maybe if I got out of this debate context and cleared my head for a while I would see my own failures a lot better, I certainly know I commit them. But in the debate itself, GDR, you are the one confusing the two different contexts. Jesus is dealing with individuals, not with armies in the NT. There are nevertheless MANY instances in the OT where God is dealing with individuals EXACTLY AS JESUS does, and your favorite quote is one of them. Proverbs and Pslams have plenty of them.

This is from Leviticus 24

quote:
19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.

What does Jesus tell us in Matthew 5

quote:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Jesus actually says, as He does in other places that the early prophets got it wrong.

No, Jesus NEVER contradicts the OT prophets and teachers. What He does is show the underlying meaning of their teachings. In the case of eye for an eye that was given as a legal procedure, not an instruction to individuals, but Jesus is telling His believers to accept injustices from others as a personal individual matter. This is not a legal procedding, this is a personal relationship. This is what you are ALWAYS misconstruing. He is not telling the justice system to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, etc. He is not talking to the justice system AT ALL, He is addressing individual believers. WE individually are to turn the other check and go the extra mile with other individuals who mistreat us. Again this makes me think I need to get out of this debate so I personally will have a better chance or learning this teaching. It's a beautiful teaching, I certainly agree with you about that, while at the same time disagreeing with you about the whole picture of God, ADAMANDLY disagreeing with you.

This from Numbers 15

quote:
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

What goes Jesus say in Luke 6

quote:
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Again you confuse a command about how to conduct a legal proceding AGAINST A WRONGDOER, an act of the society as a whole, with a command to individual believers.

And you are requiring me to explain for the zillionth time why the gathering of sticks, to build a fire on the sabbath, was considered by God to be such a horrific violation of His Law against any work on the Sabbath. You have no appreciation for the enormity of this offense and my explanation will as usual fall short of anything that might convince you. You are just going to go on judging it by your own utterly irrelevant feelings.

BUT the point is that the Sabbath in the OT is a symbol of the SALVATION TO BE GIVEN THROUGH CHRIST, the DAY OF REST from our burden of sin that He will bring to believers in His sacrifice for us. ANY WORK DONE ON THE SABBATH DAY that is not punished impl8ies that Jesus' death does not suffice to end all our works to save ourselves from sin, that He will pay it ALL, HAS paid it ALL for us. We cannot be saved by works, but only by faith in His death for us, and that is the meaning of God's prohibition of work on the Sabbath, the Sabbath being a day of REST from our works that will be wrought by Jesus on our behalf. The entirely of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, teaches the mercy of God in saving us from the endless works of righteousness that we can never ever accomplish for our own salvation. If Jesus does not die FOR us we will all end up in Hell. And this is why all "works-righteousness" is denounced over and over and over by the Protestant Reformers. Catholicism requires good deeds for salvation, that's works, that's picking up sticks on the Day of Rest/the Sabbath, and all other religions ALSO require us to earn our salvation, Islam among all the rest. Biblical Christianity says that is impossible and we delude ourselves, the Law is way too exacting, we can never ever fulfill it. Only Jesus could fulfill it, and His sacrifice brings us the rest from our works that we could never accomplish. And picking up sticks on the Sabbath to build a fire symbolizes the works He fulfills in our stead, denying the completeness of His sacrifice. That is an unforgiveable enormity from God's point of view. You trivialize it of course because you have no appreciate whatever for what Jesus actually did for us.

Jesus even tells us to pray to be forgiven as we forgive others.

I could go on but that is certainly enough. I am afraid Faith that I do not understand how your idea of God’s justice can be so different from one period to the next.

Perhaps I am simply inadequate at making the point though it isn't for lack of trying. There IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD'S JUSTICE IN OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, as I'm trying my beest to make clear.

I believe in the God as personified in Jesus who is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

The belief that you can harmonize beliefs in an inerrant Bible with the life and teaching of Jesus is just plainly obviously wrong. I’ll go with Jesus.

But you don't "go with Jesus," you deny the whole context of the OT that makes His mission clear, you deny the absolute meaning of the Cross, you deny the essence of His Messiahship, you substitute a puny little idea of love in the place of His true love.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 04-05-2020 12:20 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Aussie, posted 04-06-2020 2:36 PM Faith has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5373
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 19 of 103 (874587)
04-06-2020 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
04-06-2020 11:42 AM


Re: Biblical Contradictions
Faith writes:

No you don't. You can only agree with it now by leaving out the whole discussion about how the God who decreed horrific slaughters as punishment of wicked tribes in the OT is not God.

No I'm saying that the writers of those books attributed to God what came out of their own evil intentions and justified it by saying that God told them to do it.

There is only one God. You contend that He is capable of committing and ordering genocide and public stoning and I disagree., or are you saying that there is more than one god and that we worship opposing gods.

Faith writes:

Again you are using a term in a different sense than traditional theology uses it. Yes there is a progressive revelation of the nature of God throughout the Bible, but what you actually mean by that is not a mere accumulation of depth to the portrait of God but a kind of "progression" that actually overturns earlier revelation, and that is not the same progressive revelation the traditional Church has in mind.

I fail to see how the idea of god ordering genocide is a revelation.

One of the problems is that you treat the Bible as one book. It is a collection of 66 books and even then sometimes one book such as Isaiah has more than one author. One problem in doing that is that when someone finds something in the Bible that contradicts something else they they just might reject the whole thing. Just because someone attributed genocide to God when it really came from very human evil does not have any connection with the accounts of the resurrection of Jesus for example.

Faith writes:

I still intended to answer the rest of your original post. TGhere are no contradictions in the OT except those you imagine either because you impute different meanings to the words or simply reject parts of the Bible.

Standing by.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 11:42 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 1:24 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 103 (874589)
04-06-2020 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
04-06-2020 1:09 PM


Re: Biblical Contradictions
Yes it's one book, properly understood, and no writer of any part of it had any evil intentions -- and your implied accusation of those who believe it to be the truth is breathtaking. And I did go back and finish my response to your original post, and who knows if I'll be able to finish this one.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 04-06-2020 1:09 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 261
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 21 of 103 (874591)
04-06-2020 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
04-06-2020 12:51 PM


And you are requiring me to explain for the zillionth time why the gathering of sticks, to build a fire on the sabbath, was considered by God to be such a horrific violation of His Law against any work on the Sabbath. You have no appreciation for the enormity of this offense and my explanation will as usual fall short of anything that might convince you. You are just going to go on judging it by your own utterly irrelevant feelings.

Hi Faith! I'm interested in this statement, and wonder if you would mind explaining to me and others reading (again, apparently) why God would required a brutal death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

To be completely transparent, I am asking as someone who literally, as you said of GDR, "has no idea of the enormity of the offense" of gathering firewood on a Saturday.

Also, I'm not hopeful that you are going to try to even poke a stick at a casual answer, let alone leave us with a thoughtful response...but I can hope.

You are just going to go on judging it by your own utterly irrelevant feelings.

If GDR is a believer, then he is a moral creature made in the image of God...God's law should be written on his heart. Understanding God's law should be the most natural thing in the world to a believer...and the fact that two such firm believers can disagree on such a fundamental moral issue as when you should kill people...is amazing to me.

Again Faith...try to reign in the arrogance a bit. He is trying desperately to have a reasonable conversation with you about a big moral issue... the indiscriminate killing of entire populations. How can you shrug that off as his own utterly irrelevant feelings? Wanting people to not die is not irrelevant, not in any morally nuanced conversation. I tried to engage you for a while on the last thread, but all I could get from you was "Stop judging God, God judges you, not the other way around!

What moral conversation can be held if all you end up saying is that if we question you, we are questioning God...and that He will judge us even more harshly for it...?

Edited by Aussie, : Grammar...


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 12:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 2:43 PM Aussie has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 103 (874592)
04-06-2020 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Aussie
04-06-2020 2:36 PM


Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
This is the answer I gave above. I guess you didn't like it but it's the best I can do:

BUT the point is that the Sabbath in the OT is a symbol of the SALVATION TO BE GIVEN THROUGH CHRIST, the DAY OF REST from our burden of sin that He will bring to believers in His sacrifice for us. ANY WORK DONE ON THE SABBATH DAY that is not punished impl8ies that Jesus' death does not suffice to end all our works to save ourselves from sin, that He will pay it ALL, HAS paid it ALL for us. We cannot be saved by works, but only by faith in His death for us, and that is the meaning of God's prohibition of work on the Sabbath, the Sabbath being a day of REST from our works that will be wrought by Jesus on our behalf. The entirely of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, teaches the mercy of God in saving us from the endless works of righteousness that we can never ever accomplish for our own salvation. If Jesus does not die FOR us we will all end up in Hell. And this is why all "works-righteousness" is denounced over and over and over by the Protestant Reformers. Catholicism requires good deeds for salvation, that's works, that's picking up sticks on the Day of Rest/the Sabbath, and all other religions ALSO require us to earn our salvation, Islam among all the rest. Biblical Christianity says that is impossible and we delude ourselves, the Law is way too exacting, we can never ever fulfill it. Only Jesus could fulfill it, and His sacrifice brings us the rest from our works that we could never accomplish. And picking up sticks on the Sabbath to build a fire symbolizes the works He fulfills in our stead, denying the completeness of His sacrifice. That is an unforgiveable enormity from God's point of view. You trivialize it of course because you have no appreciate whatever for what Jesus actually did for us.

If GDR, or you, were so sincerely trying to understand this you wouldn't have needed my half baked attempt at it, there are solid theological discussions available.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Aussie, posted 04-06-2020 2:36 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Aussie, posted 04-06-2020 3:17 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 04-06-2020 3:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 261
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 23 of 103 (874596)
04-06-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
04-06-2020 2:43 PM


Re: Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
This is the answer I gave above. I guess you didn't like it but it's the best I can do:
BUT the point is that the Sabbath in the OT is a symbol of the SALVATION TO BE GIVEN THROUGH CHRIST

You're right...you did explain. Sorry I missed the initial reference to the Sabbath, that was my fault.

Where moral minds disagree, is in the fact that God has no better way to teach a lesson, but in flowing rivers of blood. I mean...

Worst. Teacher. Ever.

By the end of the school year, The principal has personally killed a huge number of his students, and has talked a few of his more fanatical students into killing a large number of other kids in various classes, starting in pre-school and kindergaten; and this is fine, and cannot be questioned, because the students can't comprehend the mysterious teaching methods of the principle. And should they dare speak up about all the bloodshed, they will be the next in line for the knives, or stones, or fire.
But at least a small number, a Remnant, will survive to graduate.

I'm a father, and a teacher. How can I possibly think this is okay? I mean, can you give us anything but "YOU JUST CANT UNDERSTAND!" to go on? Anything?


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 04-06-2020 5:21 PM Aussie has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 24 of 103 (874597)
04-06-2020 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
04-06-2020 2:43 PM


Re: Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
So, you put some odd symbolic interpretation on a perfectly normal act, and that makes it a “crime” worthy of death.

A more Biblical answer is that in those days God was prone to killing Israelites in large numbers and anyone who set him off had to be blamed for it.

The stoning is in Numbers 15. God kills Israelites in Numbers 12 and 16 and threatens to kill them all in Numbers 14 until Moses talks him out of it. (And I am aware of at least one more example in Numbers)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 25 of 103 (874605)
04-06-2020 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Aussie
04-06-2020 3:17 PM


Re: Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
Thinking about it I think Faith’s misread an attempt to explain the story as a parable. If the whole thing was symbolic it’s just disturbing rather than horrific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Aussie, posted 04-06-2020 3:17 PM Aussie has responded

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Aussie
Member
Posts: 261
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 26 of 103 (874608)
04-06-2020 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
04-06-2020 5:21 PM


Re: Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
Thinking about it I think Faith’s misread an attempt to explain the story as a parable. If the whole thing was symbolic it’s just disturbing rather than horrific.

Hi PaulK,

No, I don't think so, although disturbing is an improvement on horrific. They read Old Testament stories as literal events, yet also as a foreshadowing of what is going to happen in the future. They are referred to as "Types" and "Shadows." You may be familiar with this terminology. Depending on your personal predisposition towards Biblical interpretation, many...sometimes all... things in the OT is a foretelling of a future NT event. So the serpent in the Garden represents Satan of the NT, Noah's Ark, Cain and Abel's offerings, The Life of Joseph, the Offering of Isaac, the Wandering in the Wilderness, The Construction of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, the different Feasts of Israel, the Various offerings of the Israelites, the function of the various tribes of Israel, (Tribes of Benjamin, Judah, Levi...). I could literally go on for ages; all represent a future promise that is fulfilled in the NT. This is a seriously deep and sometimes bizarre rabbit hole we could jump into.

The killing of the man was literal (In her brain), yet what God wanted was that by getting us to kill this guy for working on Saturday, we learned how seriously He takes His day of rest. Like disturb His naps at your peril, dude. All kidding aside, her type and shadow for this story was tortured to say the least, and hardly rigorous...but she tried.

At the end of the day she's still defending a lot of killing. I can think of a few other religious groups that defend it still today, so... *sigh*

Edited by Aussie, : Clarification...

Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 103 (874609)
04-06-2020 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Aussie
04-06-2020 6:00 PM


Re: Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
Well, I've looked at many theological commentaries and am not finding my own interpretation of Numbers 15:32. The general trend is to interpret the severe punishment in terms of a "high handed" disobedience of a highly publicized Law given by God, the open gathering of the sticks as if it was a trivial matter. Orthodox Jews today regard the Sabbath as sacrosanct and would no doubt interpret along these lines.

I'm puzzled. I know you'll consider me arrogant but I have to think God had the Sabbath rest in Jesus in mind as part of the reason for the dire punishment since we know the Sabbath IS a type of the rest in Christ. I don't understand why it isn't the centerpiece of the commentaries.

I couldn't find that particular passage interpreted in terms of the Sabbath rest in Jesus, but I found a good statement of the New Testament understanding of resting in Jesus, quoted below, which is what I had in mind. If I had it in mind and it is the ultimate meaning of the Sabbath in the Christian context, which it is, then for sure God had it in mind in telling Moses the man was to be stoned to death for violating the Sabbath. ALSO the context of the highhandedness of the sin, of course, but God knew the future as well as the present context and salvation by faith and not works is THE central message of the Cross. Yeah I'm arrogant, I actually think God must have had my interpetetion in mind.

From Compelling Truth dot org

What does it mean that Jesus is our Sabbath rest?
Hebrews 4 speaks of Jesus as our Sabbath rest. Verses 9-10 in particular state, "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his." How is Jesus our Sabbath rest?

The key to understanding how Jesus is our Sabbath rest is understanding what the Sabbath means. The Hebrew word shabat was the word "rest" in the Old Testament first used in regard to God "resting" from creation on the seventh day. The Sabbath would later become part of the Law of Moses, referring to the Sabbath day, Saturday, upon which the Jewish people were to do no work.

In the New Testament, Jesus declared Himself "lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8). He equated Himself with God the Father, becoming God in human form. In addition, Jesus declared, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

In Hebrews 3 and 4, the author developed the concept of Jesus as our Sabbath rest, revealing how a relationship with Christ frees humans from the works of the law and allows a person to rest in the work of Christ to forgive sin. Ultimately, those who believe in Jesus will spend eternity in a "Sabbath rest" with Him (Hebrews 4:9).

Today, many continue to live as if their salvation depends on how many good deeds they perform. Yet Christ is the only one who can provide sufficiently for the sins of people and offer eternal life. It is by His grace we receive salvation, through faith. As Ephesians 2:8-9 reveal, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Jesus serves as our Sabbath rest in the sense that He provides freedom from living under the works of the law. Instead, His sacrifice has paid the price for our salvation. We accept salvation as His free gift, entering into His rest both now as well as in eternity in His presence.

Hebrews 4 ends with words of comfort for those who enter God's Sabbath rest: "Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16). As a result of Christ's finished work, we can confidently come before God, receiving mercy and grace in our time of need.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Aussie, posted 04-06-2020 6:00 PM Aussie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 04-06-2020 8:31 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 103 (874610)
04-06-2020 7:45 PM


The usual refusal to distinguish justice from crime. Amazine
A lot of "killing" you all say as if it were murder. The usual refusal to distinguish between judgment/justice and criminal killing. *Sigh* "The wages of sin is death," folks, that's judgment on sin. We will all eventually die, that's judgment for sin. We get sick, we get injured, little deaths in a way, all part of the wages of sin passed down through the generations from Eden due to the Fall, the original disobedience of God by the human race. We're supposed to LEARN from these things about God's view of sin, not fight Him about it. That's a fight we can't win.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5373
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 29 of 103 (874611)
04-06-2020 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
04-06-2020 7:30 PM


Re: Why Picking Up Sticks on the Sabbath is Such a Terrible Sin Redux
Let's for the sake of argument assume that you are right and that picking up firewood on the Sabbath is punishable by death. The Bible says that God not only commanded death but death by stoning.

Why stoning? Why not at least order death by something that wasn't slow and tortuous on many levels? They no doubt had ways of killing people quickly if not instantly. Why would God choose that he be executed in a slow, painful and humiliating way.

Also why involve the whole community in the execution.? It would certainly harden their hearts if that is the goal.

This is very similar in the thinking the Romans used when it came to execution by crucifixion. Make it tortuous, public and humiliating.

Understanding the Scriptures the way you do puts God on the same level as the Romans. Frankly that sounds a whole lot more blasphemous than picking up firewood on the sabbath.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 04-06-2020 7:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 04-07-2020 1:09 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 103 (874615)
04-07-2020 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by GDR
04-06-2020 8:31 PM


Why Stoning, why the Horror of the Cross?
The usual idea as I understand it is that stoning by the community was to impress the whole community with the seriousness of the offense, but I didn't look it up, this is merely what I remember from somewhere or other. Instead of hardening their hearts it should have put the fear of God into them, that was its point.

God of course governs all things, including the Romans' use of crucifixion (there were other nations that also used it though I don't remember which). I'll take your word for the Romans' reasons which I'd never heard before, but God's reason was to punish Jesus for OUR sins, remember, since He had no sin of His own, and our sins deserve such a death. One thing I did learn years ago was that the shape of the cross mimics the shape of the altar where animals were sacrificed, tied to four corners, so it also has that symbolism in it. Jesus IS the Lamb of God, the one Sacrifice that ends them all.

The wages of sin is death. Suffering of all sorts is included in death as we inherit it down the generations. What would be the point in making Jesus' death in our place lighter than we deserve?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 04-06-2020 8:31 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 04-07-2020 1:59 AM Faith has responded

  
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