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Author Topic:   My Book On Evolution
Phat
Member
Posts: 14106
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 31 (875490)
04-27-2020 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
03-21-2020 11:01 AM


How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
Did you compose it here without prior rough drafts or did you actually spend a couple of years writing and revising it? I'm gonna take a few moments to be your critic, Mikey. Better me than someone who actually thinks Stephen Hawking was right!

MTW writes:

So I am not trying to slaughter you personally for being evolutionist, I just wanted to give an effort to the "book" form, for want of a better word. This is all ultimately what I am convinced of at an intellectual person, from what I have learnt and figured out.

For the record, what defines an "evolutionist"? Is there something in common that non-creationists believe?

MTW writes:

When we evaluate evolution as a claim, we have to evaluate WHAT it claims.

What is "it"? Are you simply claiming the concept of evolution to be a monolithic world view? If so, be more specific on what a Mikey-professed "evolutionist" would believe to be true, based on their studies.

MTW writes:

So the point I am making is that there seems to be stages that would have to exist which were not complete as designs even if they were viable according to evolution. So for example, if something is evolving from forelimbs which are legs with feet, into wings, or evolving into fins, the "fin" design would be incomplete, and the "wing" design would be incomplete, respectively, if they were heading in that direction evolutionarily. But of course, you have to prove there is a viable, "middle", it's not enough just to claim these things existed.

I would like to see someone comment on whether or not they believe that humans are still evolving and what we predict we will ultimately become if in fact there is an endgame to it.
MTW writes:

Evolution depends on there existing a common ancestor

Does not Creationism also state this, through Adam & Eve?

Chapter 1 claims that there is no middle.

Finally, (and as a bit of humor) is this book evolving, or is it being created?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 03-21-2020 11:01 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 04-27-2020 6:38 PM Phat has responded
 Message 6 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2020 9:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 04-29-2020 8:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14106
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 12 of 31 (875594)
04-30-2020 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
04-27-2020 6:38 PM


Re: How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
Phat writes:

I would like to see someone comment on whether or not they believe that humans are still evolving...


ringo writes:

Of course we are. The only way to stop evolving is to become extinct.


Phat writes:

... and what we predict we will ultimately become...


ringo writes:

Evolution can not be predicted.


Indeed not. Perhaps the "book" that you call fiction can shed some light on an answer, or at the very least a most definite belief. If you ask Christian believers what they see as the future of humanity, they will consider the scriptures, unless they have been deluded by their own intellects.
Gen 3:5 writes:

in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." NKJV

. Granted we disagree as to the reasoning and meaning of Genesis. jar thinks it is simply human written "just-so" stories. Perhaps jar thinks that the entire Bible was written, edited, and imagined by humans. You do too, and likely think that it was intended to be fictional.
Phat writes:

... if in fact there is an endgame to it.


ringo writes:

Again, the only "end" is extinction. But even our extinction is not an end to the evolution of our descendants.

And thus the worldview of many of our EvC members is that in which humans and humans alone are responsible for the world we create. After all, why even entertain the ideas in "Bronze Age Myths" when the evidence clearly shows that humans used religion and religious texts and authority to further their own supposed evolutionary development into being "as gods".

Hey, I get it. I even understand why some of you think and believe that there is no "God" and that the very story of Jesus Christ may well have been a myth. You were taught this belief. It makes evidential sense to you. Nevermind talking snakes and getting swallowed by fish....we could chalk that stuff up as metaphorical, as well as a Great Flood.

The central story of the Bible, as believed by many Christians today, is that humans were and are defiant, wise in our own eyes, dismissive of Jesus Christ (more so than any other religious figure in literature and mythos) and cautiously confidant of our own ability to make a brave new world...even today with the Covid-19 drama. What is the destiny of humanity?
And yet this scientific belief known as evolution implies newness through time. Perhaps it implies that humans will either gain the wisdom to survive or will indeed go extinct. Surely we need to have a global consensus and plan. Surely we need to get along.

Many of you would say that surely belief in God is going backward in this new age of progress. Tangle limits God to a character in a book and defies anyone to prove differently.

He cannot prove that when a believer prays they don't actually have a communion with a Creator of all seen and unseen. But nevermind, it appears that around here objective evidence is necessary. Thankfully, so is freedom of speech. So I continue.

Hey, Tangle, I get your logic. You claim that at one time you were a believer. It is said that adult belief in Jesus as a living prescence is much the same as a chjilds belief in Santa Claus. I believed both, and can only give my own opinion. Even as a child, though I held to a belief in Santa Claus, I knew at a very young age that he did not exist. I simply engaged in a psychological practice known as Suspension of Disbelief

It was not the same with Jesus. Once I accepted Him into my heart, there was a most definite wholesale change in my feelings, perceptions, and awareness.

Granted the stories are illogical from a rationally minded point of view. Personally, I think that Biblical Creationists pick the wrong intellectual battle to focus on. I personally believe that the Bible is metaphorically literal in thought for thought context and not word for word literal. I make my stand on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I see Him as God's character in human form....more than simply another great philosopher or thinker. I believe that when I pray to Him and commune with Him I am not simply inventing a comforting character in my own mind. I have felt the difference. I have encountered the Holy presence. Does that mean that I am loony? To believe that humans are capable of eventually describing more and more of what is seen as evidential is not as likely in my mind. (and heart) And it is through the heart that humanity will fail. We have no reason to deny the One who died for us. It's our own egos and reasoning that indeed seeks any answer except the religious one that defeats us in the end.

There are many great scientists who are believers. Their belief does not interfere with their scientific methodology nor is there even a commonsense worldview that challenges them.

2 Peter 3:3-5 writes:

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. (...)1 Cor 1:18-22----------->
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. NKJV

I can fully understand many questions being raised.
  • Why does God care if we believe? Tangle wonders about free will in Heaven as if he could simply be there and keep his current worldview intact. I won't argue with him....perhaps he is right, but it will be God's authority (and not simple reality) that even allows him to dwell there. Personally I see all of you being transformed, once enough chaos and craziness of humanity manifests on the global news. I do predict, however, that Christians will be shut down (in the interest of public safety) rather than allowed to simply preach their belief. To me, this will confirm that humanity as a whole will have gone with scientific evidence rather than belief in God. I pray that anyone who reads this will reconsider. Finally, what harm does belief in God do for your life? How does it cripple you?

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by ringo, posted 04-27-2020 6:38 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by jar, posted 04-30-2020 8:56 AM Phat has responded
     Message 14 by Tangle, posted 04-30-2020 9:03 AM Phat has responded
     Message 20 by dwise1, posted 04-30-2020 8:00 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 21 by ringo, posted 05-02-2020 1:46 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14106
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 15 of 31 (875607)
    04-30-2020 12:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
    04-30-2020 9:03 AM


    Re: How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
    Tangle writes:

    I ask that if god is capable of creating heaven where there is no suffering and death then why can't he do it here?

    You would have to ask Him, of course. This question does not keep me up at night, that's for sure.
    And, indeed, why is here necessary?
    Not sure I understand this question. What do you mean "why is here necessary? " You mean the "experiment" that I suggest God may be conducting? The obvious answer is to build and develop human character in the face of ongoing adversity. And you get that but don't accept it---choosing instead to indict a hypothetical "God" should He support that strategy. And you can't get for the life of you why most believers don't share your accusations against such a god. I'm not sure that you understand what it is like to be a believer. It is not like Santa Claus. It is being internally and objectively certain that GOD exists through Jesus Christ and that Jesus is alive and present today. You claim that you willfully talked yourself out of "such bollocks" but I would believe this to be true evidence be damned. Once one has actually met somebody, one cannot deny the existence of such a person. But thats a discussion for another sermon.

    And before you scold me, I am quite clear that you claim to give my concept of God no more thought than you would Zeus. I get that.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Tangle, posted 04-30-2020 9:03 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by Tangle, posted 04-30-2020 12:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 19 by Stile, posted 04-30-2020 4:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14106
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 16 of 31 (875608)
    04-30-2020 12:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Tangle
    04-30-2020 9:03 AM


    Persecution Complex
    Tangle writes:

    Yes, it's a Christian preoccupation and longing for persecution. Sadly for both you and Faith, it's not going to happen. What will happen is what is actually happening across the developed world is that extreme beliefs like yours will gradually just get diluted and fade out. They eventually become irrelevant.

    Do you think that I want to be persecuted? I'm a spoiled brat! Jesus did that work...why should I have to do it?? Oh, I know....scripture suggests that I too will be persecuted. I don't want any human to be persecuted for any reason, even if they do evil things. At best, I would want the demons that claim them to be wiped out, so you can use that statement to proclaim me certifiably nuts.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Tangle, posted 04-30-2020 9:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14106
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 17 of 31 (875609)
    04-30-2020 12:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by jar
    04-30-2020 8:56 AM


    Re: How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
    jar writes:

    It's not a matter of what I believe rather it is a conclusion based on the Evidence and reality.

    There are a plethora of evidential claims regarding Biblical origins. As for reality, the reality is not what it seems. My basic question to you is how you can in good conscience steer Christians towards what *they* are responsible to do and to essentially dismiss God as simply evolving characters within human mythos.

    Don't get me wrong, I see your "evidence" and have followed your arguments.

    I have asserted that you do not represent Christianity the way that it should in fact be represented, whereas you then counter that the Christianity that I attempt to follow and market is "an apologetic marketing fantasy". When I protest and challenge you on this point, you admittedly do present an intellectually persuasive argument that an unbeliever could follow as well as or better than a believer. You are true to your conclusions. I had to dig for the story of Virginia. I am still evaluating my ideas regarding your belief but I respect that you are honest.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by jar, posted 04-30-2020 8:56 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14106
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 25 of 31 (875685)
    05-03-2020 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
    05-02-2020 1:46 PM


    Re: How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
    ringo writes:

    I don't "believe that there is no God." I just don't have any belief that there is.

    In which case I would argue that you never did. At best, you saw God as a kid sees Santa Claus. How many kids do you know that had a personal relationship with Santa Claus?

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by ringo, posted 05-02-2020 1:46 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by ringo, posted 05-03-2020 1:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14106
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 26 of 31 (875686)
    05-03-2020 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by dwise1
    05-02-2020 5:10 PM


    Re: How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
    So whats your first-hand observations about Jesus Freaks who actually had a personal relationship with Jesus? Did any of them have a peace about them? Did they help encourage others? Did they respect you enough to never actively try and convert you? Just curious.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by dwise1, posted 05-02-2020 5:10 PM dwise1 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by dwise1, posted 05-06-2020 5:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 31 by dwise1, posted 05-08-2020 1:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14106
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 27 of 31 (875687)
    05-03-2020 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
    05-02-2020 4:37 PM


    Re: How Long Have You Been Working On This Book?
    I had blazing rows with them for months.
    Explains why you reject authority figures and chalk them up to human mythos. Perhaps God created you to be an arguer. Iron sharpens iron.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Tangle, posted 05-02-2020 4:37 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by Tangle, posted 05-03-2020 12:02 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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