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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
ringo
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Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


(5)
Message 14 of 452 (875793)
05-06-2020 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Richard L. Wang
05-05-2020 4:07 PM


Richard L. Wang writes:

what is the reason for DNists to believe that only natural laws operate in biological processes?


They don't.

Belief is out of place in science.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-05-2020 4:07 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 22 of 452 (875809)
05-06-2020 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Richard L. Wang
05-06-2020 4:19 PM


Re: You are right
Richard L. Wang writes:

Naturalism in biology is the idea that only natural laws operate in biological processes.


It isn't so much that only natural laws operate. It's that natural laws are all we can examine. If there was a God that interacted with the real world in a predictable manner, it could certainly be incorporated into science.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-06-2020 4:19 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 35 of 452 (875840)
05-07-2020 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Richard L. Wang
05-07-2020 4:21 PM


Re: Re – 19(PaulK): DN strictly controls science and education
Richard L. Wang writes:

Can one teach creationism in classrooms of public schools?


That's a political issue, not a scientific one. You can't teach creationism in an American school because it's religion, not science. In Canada, we're not quite as explicit. You could probably teach creationism in a Canadian school but we don't because it's rubbish. There's no "science" demon stopping us.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 47 of 452 (875879)
05-08-2020 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Richard L. Wang
05-05-2020 4:07 PM


Richard L. Wang writes:

From now on, I’ll use (Neo-)Darwinian-Naturalism or DN to represent Naturalism in biology or the Naturalistic explanation of biology.


You really should drop the D altogether. Nothing in science really depends on Darwin any more; everything has been cross-checked so many times. Mentioning Darwin just shows you are behind the times.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-05-2020 4:07 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-09-2020 4:23 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 63 of 452 (875951)
05-10-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Richard L. Wang
05-09-2020 4:23 PM


Re: Re-46(PaulK)&47(ringo): Evolution is a great theory
Richard L. Wang writes:

In his time, Darwin’s Naturalistic view of biology is understandable.


How is it less understandable now? Mendel's work on genetics added a mechanism.

Richard L. Wang writes:

D in my abbreviation DN does not represent Darwin’s, but Neo-Darwinism’s or Neo-Darwinists’.


But why mention Darwin at all? You might as well call modern physics "Neo-Newtonism".

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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 Message 54 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-09-2020 4:23 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 123 of 452 (876218)
05-14-2020 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by WookieeB
05-13-2020 7:18 PM


WookieB writes:

No, we call it a "code" because the arrangement of molecules corresponds to a symbol system that is independent from and conveys information independent from any physical properties of the molecules themselves.


How is the "message" written on the molecule? What is the ink?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 167 of 452 (876492)
05-21-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by GDR
05-20-2020 6:00 PM


GDR writes:

Humans can distinguish that the daffodil is different than the rose. Humans have that information, and then assign a name to the plants. Humans are simply naming the uniqueness of the daffodil.


What you're saying is that humans manufacture information. They don't "discover" it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 6:00 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 171 of 452 (876499)
05-21-2020 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by GDR
05-21-2020 11:56 AM


GDR writes:

I'm saying that humans interpret the information they discover.


You keep mentioning humans. Without humans there is no information.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by GDR, posted 05-21-2020 11:56 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 175 of 452 (876507)
05-21-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by GDR
05-21-2020 12:27 PM


GDR writes:

Are you saying that prior to human existence nothing existed?


Of course not. I'm saying that prior to human existence no information existed. Just like no limericks existed.

It's the same argument as saying that DNA contains no mystical code. All it is is an arrangement of atoms that behaves in certain ways depending on the arrangement. "Information" is just the spin that humans put on it.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 182 of 452 (876524)
05-21-2020 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by WookieeB
05-21-2020 2:34 PM


Wookie B writes:

Are you saying that for other non-human minds there is nothing akin to information?


There may be dolphin information and even ant information. When you learn to read it you can compare it to human information. In any case, it's still just a dolphin interpretation or an ant interpretation of dolphin reality or ant reality. It has no inherent existence.

Wookie B writes:

The parts/matter is still there, but the (purposeful) arrangement of those parts has an effect independent of the properties of the matter itself.


First, there is no "purposeful arrangement". DNA does not have a purpose.

Second, how is it even possible for some mystical message to be written on the atoms themselves, independent of the atoms themselves? What is the ink?

I use the word "mystical" very deliberately because there is no real message other than the arrangement of the atoms.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed attribution


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by WookieeB, posted 05-21-2020 2:34 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by WookieeB, posted 05-21-2020 7:11 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 197 of 452 (876553)
05-22-2020 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by WookieeB
05-21-2020 7:11 PM


Wookie B writes:

Of course it would still exist as information for whatever creature mind is thinking it.


It would exist only IN the mind of whatever was thinking it. Information is a product of mind. The same reality becomes very different information in the mind of a human and the mind of an ant.

Wookie B writes:

But if matter is all there is, and there really is no information, then there is also no consciousness, mathematics, science, and any other concept.


Consciousness, mathematics, science, etc. are STATES of the matter within the mind. They are how the brain rearranges itself accoding to input from the senses.

Wookie B writes:

DNA has a purpose to store and transmit information.


Like water has a purpose to run downhill? That's a function, a behaviour. What you imagine as a "purpose" is just the result it happens to have.

Wookie B writes:

The message is instantiated on matter of course.


But how? What is the medium? What is the message made of? How would you distinguish matter that carries a message from matter that does not?

Wookie B writes:

The information itself is not dependent on the matter.


The information is dependent on the matter in the medium in which it is stored, minds, paper and ink, etc. Erase every copy from the matter and the information is gone with no way to get it back.

Wookie B writes:

And yet, there still is a message!


You remind me of my brother when he was young. You could show him six ways from Sunday that something wasn't true and his response would be, "But I think it is."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by WookieeB, posted 05-21-2020 7:11 PM WookieeB has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 199 of 452 (876561)
05-22-2020 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by GDR
05-22-2020 12:40 PM


GDR writes:

Data is information.


I was taught that data was a collection of observations and information is data that has been analyzed, interpreted, etc. so that it "means" something.

The raw data is a perception of reality and the information is an interpretation of the perception. All in the mind.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by GDR, posted 05-22-2020 12:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 05-22-2020 4:40 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 201 of 452 (876564)
05-22-2020 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Richard L. Wang
05-22-2020 3:49 PM


Re: Re-Admin(151): My response to feedback
Maybe spend less time analyzing what you need to reply to and more time replying.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-22-2020 3:49 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-22-2020 4:03 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 209 of 452 (876588)
05-23-2020 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by GDR
05-22-2020 4:40 PM


GDR writes:

Again, here is the dictionary definition.


Dictionary definitions are often not adequate in scientific discussions.

GDR writes:

Would you agree that data exists without it being perceived?


No.

Reality exists. Observations of reality (data) require on observer (perceiver).


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 05-22-2020 4:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by GDR, posted 05-23-2020 2:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 210 of 452 (876592)
05-23-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by WookieeB
05-23-2020 4:18 AM


Wookie B writes:

Probably, information as it is imprinted on a human mind is different from human to human.


Exactly. Because it is CREATED within the individual mind based on the unique set of inputs received by that mind.

Wookie B writes:

ringo writes:

But how? What is the medium? What is the message made of?


I already gave an example of how with the Macbeth scenario.

Your example doesn't answer the question. If every copy of Macbeth was erased from every mind and every medium, how would it be rebuilt? You claim that the information in Macbeth is floating around out there somewhere in the cosmos. So if Shakespeare managed to figure it out once, somebody else should be able to figure it out again. How? Be specific.

Wookie B writes:

For the sake of discussion, in our natural world a mind is dependent on matter (the brain), but a mind is not the brain.


No, I'm using thw word "mind" pretty much interchangeably with "brain". If you think the mind is more than just a brain function, you're going to have to supply a whole lot of evidence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by WookieeB, posted 05-23-2020 4:18 AM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by WookieeB, posted 05-25-2020 4:29 PM ringo has responded

  
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