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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
Tangle
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Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
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(2)
Message 7 of 452 (875782)
05-06-2020 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Richard L. Wang
05-05-2020 4:07 PM


RLW writes:

what is the reason for DNists to believe that only natural laws operate in biological processes?

As you want to keep things simple, and allowing your premise - which I don't - it would be because science in general (not just biology, or your ridiculously reductive 'DNists' - has only ever found natural processes to study.

If you like, there is a working hypothesis that our world can be explained by natural processes but the minute they can't be, science will reconsider.

What supernatural event do you propose they study?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-05-2020 4:07 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 16 of 452 (875798)
05-06-2020 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Admin
05-06-2020 3:22 PM


Definitely.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Admin, posted 05-06-2020 3:22 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
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Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 36 of 452 (875841)
05-07-2020 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Richard L. Wang
05-07-2020 4:27 PM


Re: The DN’s premise (continued 1)
RLW writes:

This leads directly to the fourth point, that is, there is no supernatural power, no God.

This is a non sequitur. There is no connection between your claims about naturalism an there being no god. Obviously there could be a god that created the entire shebang.

Obviously, the first point - life consists only of matter – is the premise or theoretical foundation of Darwinian-Naturalism. Its correctness determines the correctness of Darwinian-Naturalism.

The question is that is it correct?

Of course not, it's not even a consideration; it's an irrelevance. A straw man. Science studies what it can observe. It makes no assumptions. The concept of naturalism in science is a conclusion not a premise - you have it all the wrong way round.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-07-2020 4:27 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Ben!, posted 05-24-2020 2:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 56 of 452 (875928)
05-09-2020 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Richard L. Wang
05-09-2020 4:23 PM


Re: Re-46(PaulK)&47(ringo): Evolution is a great theory
Can you just get on with it please?

Maybe address the point that we're all raising, that naturalism is a conclusion of science not its premise and that it will change its mind the second anything supernatural crops up.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-09-2020 4:23 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 05-09-2020 5:40 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 58 of 452 (875931)
05-09-2020 5:43 PM


I see this guy is now asking to open yet another thread. He's not interested in debate or even discussion, he's here to lecture/preach.

Please don't promote it until he's answered his questioners here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 61 of 452 (875948)
05-10-2020 12:52 PM


… now he's spamming the proposal thread rather than answer us. He's just another creationist pillock.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by PaulK, posted 05-10-2020 12:56 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 66 by WookieeB, posted 05-10-2020 2:58 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 67 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-10-2020 3:33 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 75 of 452 (875973)
05-10-2020 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Richard L. Wang
05-10-2020 3:33 PM


Re: Re – Tangle(56&58&61): Let’s move on. Warning: I set up a trap ahead
RLW writes:

Now, we are all agree that “Life consists only of matter” directly leads to “only natural laws operate in biological processes.”

No! None of us agree with that. We say that all science has ever found is natural processes so science's working hypothesis is that it's natural processes all the way down. Unless and until that observation changes, that's the way we progress.

All else is waffle, wordplay, equivocation and avoidance of facts.

How do you answer the facts?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-10-2020 3:33 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 80 of 452 (875979)
05-10-2020 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by WookieeB
05-10-2020 2:58 PM


Wookie writes:

But what is your question?

I/we don't have a question, we have a statement; the statement is that science has only observed natural processes so it has a fairly hard but necessarily provisional conclusion that natural processes are all there are. This position is not confined to biology nor the portion of it called evolution, nor his imaginary subdivision that he has a personal name for, but all of science.

That is not a premise, that is a conclusion based on innumerable observations.

Given those facts our OP's 'premise' is defunct. Unless he addresses this impasse he can't progress on his rehearsed, blinkered schedule.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by WookieeB, posted 05-10-2020 2:58 PM WookieeB has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 111 of 452 (876159)
05-13-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Richard L. Wang
05-13-2020 10:35 AM


Re: Methodological naturalism, metaphysical naturalism, philosophical naturalism …
RLW writes:

Take the origin of life on Earth for example. If I say that “science cannot explain the origin of life on Earth”, then ALL Naturalists will say “No, science can.”

You keep getting really basic stuff just plain wrong.

Science can not explain the origin of life. We don't yet know how life here began. Science has a name for it - 'abiogenesis' - and it has some hypothesises but it hasn't found the answer, yet.

It does, however, assume that the answer when it is found will be a naturalistic one - because everything we've studied so far is. But that's as far as it goes.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-13-2020 10:35 AM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 129 of 452 (876393)
05-18-2020 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Richard L. Wang
05-18-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Re-Stile(90): Premise
Yawn.

So far science has only observed natural processes operating in biology or any other study of our universe. So the working hypothesis is that natural processes are all there are. It's there to be disproven. Your move, surprise us.

Do try to stop introducing your straw man time and time again.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-18-2020 4:47 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 05-18-2020 5:41 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 140 of 452 (876410)
05-19-2020 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by GDR
05-19-2020 2:25 AM


GDR writes:

Back to the onions … regardless of whether it was recorded accurately or not there is an absolutely correct number of onions.

But that only became information when someone counted them. Before the count, there was no information.

It's the physical process of the count that produces the information about how many. The information is then stored in the memory functions in the brain and can stay there or be transmitted onwards - speech, writing, images, codes etc. All physical.

In biology, what these people always try to do is show that new information can't be created naturally - ie that creatures can't evolve because that requires the creation of new 'information'. But of course nature creates new stuff all the time - one year it produces 1,000 onions, the next 600. Once you count them it becomes new information.

They claim that the code that produces new organisms - DNA - is information that can't be increased by what they call 'random' processes. But we know that it be because we observe it happening and count it and it has become useful information - knowledge. For example, peppered moth studies.

Essentially what these people claim is that the universe is wrong and they are right.

And isn't it odd that it's only fundamental religious believers that make these claims? They are always based on belief, not fact.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 2:25 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 3:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 143 of 452 (876427)
05-19-2020 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by GDR
05-19-2020 3:04 PM


GDR writes:

Bur prior to knowing the number of onions counted there was an exact number of onions.

There was, but it was not known. There was no freestanding information telling anybody or anything how many.

People might have guessed how many onions there were and come up with an approximate figure. That itself would be information suggestive of how many there actually are but the fact remains that there is still an exact number that exist prior to counting.

Sure, people estimating and counting creates information of various accuracies.

That is information waiting to be discovered.

Nope, the onions are waiting to be discovered, counting them creates the information about them.

Let me ask you this. Did the law of gravity exist prior to conscious life?

Of course. And the onions existed before people counted them. But the inverse square law that describes gravity and the counting system that tells us how many is information about them and is our creation.

But once again, no one knows how the stuff came to be the way it is and we can describe. Yet.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 3:04 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 4:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 145 of 452 (876430)
05-19-2020 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by GDR
05-19-2020 4:55 PM


GDR writes:

The fact remains that it was that way prior to the law being discovered. If it hadn't been there waiting to be discovered we would not exist. It was simply undiscovered information regardless of how it got to be that way.

Undiscovered information, is not information; it doesn't exist. It can't exist. Only the thing itself exists. It's only the act of discovery that creates the information about the thing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 4:55 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 7:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 148 of 452 (876439)
05-20-2020 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by GDR
05-19-2020 7:21 PM


GDR writes:

I believe either you or Stile…


Stile.

…claimed that when my hypothetical physicist died without passing on the information that he had gleaned then that information ceased to exist as it wasn't recorded anywhere and wasn't in anyone's memory.

So suppose the physicist was the one who counted the onions in the field and now he's dead how can the information about how many onions are in the field exist? The onions are still there but the information isn't. To find the information about how many onions, the onions needs to be recounted.

I quoted an article in post Message 134.

Quantum information is a different kettle of ferrets. If you want to talk about that, you need someone else (and about 20 years of impossible study first.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by GDR, posted 05-19-2020 7:21 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 11:57 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 154 by Stile, posted 05-20-2020 1:02 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 155 of 452 (876466)
05-20-2020 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by GDR
05-20-2020 11:57 AM


GDR writes:

The information was still there. It was just unknown.

Nope. The onions are there, but the information that there is 1,000 onions is not. Something or somebody has to create that information, else it is not information; it simply doesn't exist.

If you see a yellow flower that you've never seen before, all you know about it is that it's a yellow flower. You don't know that it's a daffodil. The object itself does not contain or create that information. That information was created and transmitted by a human not the daffodil.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 11:57 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by GDR, posted 05-20-2020 3:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
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